[Patch 1.0.0.152: Preseason 3] General Discussion - Page 122

On December 09 2012 06:56 epoc wrote:


Yes you have to do some math. Just because 2 cleavers give 2 stacks instead of one doesn't make it op

On December 09 2012 05:21 Ketara wrote:
Does Cleanse not remove Ignite anymore?

I saw a Trynd today clearly Cleanse an Ignite and still died from some DoT effect.

On December 09 2012 06:56 epoc wrote:


Yes you have to do some math. Just because 2 cleavers give 2 stacks instead of one doesn't make it op

On December 09 2012 06:56 epoc wrote:


Yes you have to do some math. Just because 2 cleavers give 2 stacks instead of one doesn't make it op

On December 09 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:

Black Cleaver provides 50 AD, 250 HP, 15 ArPen, and 10 CDR for 3000 gold. This is just about cost-efficient. You're basically paying a little more than 100 gold for the active.

The problem here is that 1) ArPen and CDR are both self-synergistic stats that become vastly better when stacked, and 2) it's an end-tier item that more or less provides the perfect stat mix for AD casters. Point 1 is typically balanced by the fact that items providing these 2 stats typically have unique passives and provide sub-optimal stat mixes for the champs that want them (e.g. mana on Glacial)--but Black Cleaver does not have this problem. Even if the item didn't have the proc at all, it would potentially be worth stacking because of the combination of these two factors.

On December 09 2012 06:56 Alaric wrote:

Not really. If they have to burn most of their cooldowns just to apply the stacks, it helps more whoever comes after them. Also it could mean that it doesn't proc on Talon's Q, for example, while Corki, Ezreal, Graves would have no problems stacking it.


That's, uh... brutal. Go smack them down from level 1 onward, eh? One problem I have with items light sightstone and flask is that they compete for slots with whatever else you've got. Not that much of a problem, normally... but then you're Viktor. Flask alone shouldn't be enough mana, and I want some AP on top of the augment so I can OS caster minions at level 5, and OS the full wave (except siege minion) at level 7, flask+dring is as slot-expensive as double dring. Then add boots, augment, and you've only got room for one component on top of your wards (usually for rushing deathcap anyway, I don't think Liandry's would be good on Viktor as his DoTs last far longer than his cc, and he's too AoE-based to make use of DFG either).

So if 1 dring+flask is enough with your recalls' frequency to keep up in mana usage, well go for it, it'll give you health sustain as well, but I feel that if other mages have been enhanced by the s3 changes, then Viktor who doesn't really seem to benefit directly from it is comparably a bit weaker.

Also 9-0-21 on every damn mage that doesn't ask for defensive masteries, that setup only misses butcher anyway (and eventually ignite mastery). Been loving it, except on Swain who makes farming a hassle.

On December 09 2012 07:03 TheYango wrote:


1) ArPen and CDR are both self-synergistic stats that become vastly better when stacked
2) it's an end-tier item that more or less provides the perfect stat mix for AD casters.

On December 09 2012 07:16 obesechicken13 wrote:
1) I still think it's a better idea to get stats that synergise with each other like attack speed and AD than to just stack lots of arpen. Or to get some lifesteal in there so you sustain better as well as more AD(when fully stacked) to use with the armor pen. I think stacking items is generally dumb.

On December 09 2012 07:16 obesechicken13 wrote:
2) It's an item that barely gives any tankiness. If all you do is stack Black Cleavers all game then you are just as squishy as an AD carry that has a Warmogs(-20armor/mr).

On December 09 2012 07:23 Live2Win wrote:
alright I gotta ask, what is an AD caster exactly? What are some examples?

On December 09 2012 07:07 Ketara wrote:


I think Athenes is a lot worse now. The 30 AP cut was big.

There are some mids where it's still a requirement, because it's going to give more mana than Tear will, but if you can you want to go Tear into Archangel instead and get your CDR from DFG or something, I think.

On December 09 2012 07:25 Ziken wrote:


This exactly, I still find rushing tear subpar as ori, and the chalice to athenes seems smoother while building and better late game. Chalice not good on everyone like before, which imo is a good change.

On December 09 2012 07:20 TheYango wrote:

Stacking items isn't dumb on principle. The thing is, conventional wisdom generally discourages stacking items because Riot has always been fairly mindful of designing items that are not good when stacked.

Every time they've screwed up and designed items that are effective when stacked, players have done so and it has been brutally effective--see the original Heart of Gold and Hextech Revolver.

As far as stat synergy goes, you have to realize that AD/CDR/ArPen ARE synergistic stats when it comes to AD casters, and that 2 of those 3 are SELF-synergistic as well.


Nobody's saying that you have to buy more than 2 or even buy them consecutively. But you'd be foolish to think that at the moment, Black Cleavers in multiples isn't effective on AD casters, particularly as more or less the majority of other item options involve a significant amount of wasted stats.

On December 09 2012 07:25 barbsq wrote:

wukong, pantheon, khazix, talon, zed

there are others, just naming a few

On December 09 2012 07:25 barbsq wrote:

wukong, pantheon, khazix, talon, zed

there are others, just naming a few

On December 09 2012 07:25 barbsq wrote:

wukong, pantheon, khazix, talon, zed

there are others, just naming a few