• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:36
CEST 03:36
KST 10:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting5[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO65.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)74Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition325.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)119
StarCraft 2
General
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) The New Patch Killed Mech! Ladder Impersonation (only maybe) Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Tenacious Turtle Tussle WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
After 20 seasons we have a lot of great maps Pros React To: BarrackS + FlaSh Coaching vs SnOw Whose hotkey signature is this? BW caster Sayle BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal A [ASL20] Semifinal B [ASL20] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Siegecraft - a new perspective TvZ Theorycraft - Improving on State of the Art
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Inbreeding: Why Do We Do It…
Peanutsc
From Tilt to Ragequit:The Ps…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2216 users

[Patch 1.0.0.151: End of S2] General Discussion - Page 232

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 230 231 232 233 234 280 Next
sharky246
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1197 Posts
November 28 2012 07:06 GMT
#4621
Despite all the overinflated ego and negative attitude in clg.na, they have better results than tsm, one of the few teams in na with well-mannered players.
On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote: being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal. Avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. If you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
November 28 2012 07:07 GMT
#4622
http://www.twitch.tv/pobelter

Meat vs CLG.na scrims. Pobelter playing top irelia and 4-0 vs HotshotnidaleeGG. Straight up outplaying him. But ofc doublelift is doing work.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
November 28 2012 07:07 GMT
#4623
I am pretty sure jiji is kind of annoyed at his team, but he gets paid so he is staying for the money.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 07:09:01
November 28 2012 07:08 GMT
#4624
On November 28 2012 16:07 HazMat wrote:
http://www.twitch.tv/pobelter

Meat vs CLG.na scrims. Pobelter playing top irelia and 4-0 vs HotshotnidaleeGG. Straight up outplaying him. But ofc doublelift is doing work.

So, what you're saying is, it's like every CLG.na game ever played?
On November 28 2012 16:06 sharky246 wrote:
Despite all the overinflated ego and negative attitude in clg.na, they have better results than tsm, one of the few teams in na with well-mannered players.

Uh... I dunno where you came up with this idea... TSM pretty much dominated NA scene all of S2. with CLG mostly grabbing 2nd place, and wasting time in Korea.
liftlift > tsm
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
November 28 2012 07:08 GMT
#4625
On November 28 2012 16:08 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 16:07 HazMat wrote:
http://www.twitch.tv/pobelter

Meat vs CLG.na scrims. Pobelter playing top irelia and 4-0 vs HotshotnidaleeGG. Straight up outplaying him. But ofc doublelift is doing work.

So, what you're saying is, it's like every CLG.na game ever played?

Yes sir.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17254 Posts
November 28 2012 07:09 GMT
#4626
On November 28 2012 16:07 Sufficiency wrote:
I am pretty sure jiji is kind of annoyed at his team, but he gets paid so he is staying for the money.

He's way too indifferent about drama to be in it just for the money.
twitch.tv/cratonz
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 28 2012 07:10 GMT
#4627
hotshot never wins lane and usually blames everything but himself
it would be hilarious to watch but no its usually just sad
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 07:16:06
November 28 2012 07:15 GMT
#4628
On November 28 2012 16:09 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 16:07 Sufficiency wrote:
I am pretty sure jiji is kind of annoyed at his team, but he gets paid so he is staying for the money.

He's way too indifferent about drama to be in it just for the money.

I don't think anyone can handle that much idiotic banter between the member, just for the money >.<
I think jiji is genuinely invested into the team.

Also, St V's Brutalizer rush on Rengar is pretty fucking good. I've seen him playing it a shit ton since yesterday. (He just started picking up Rengar), it's so fucking deadly.
Runs 9-21-0, (9 in Ap masteries).
Not sure about his runes, but I think its arpen reds, ms quints, armor yellows, scaling mr blues.
boots 3pot opening.
into 1dblade (sometimes 2).
into brutaliser->frozmallet->defensive items (randuins/funfirecape)

it's so fucking deadly, it's been a treat to watch.
liftlift > tsm
sharky246
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1197 Posts
November 28 2012 07:16 GMT
#4629
On November 28 2012 16:08 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 16:07 HazMat wrote:
http://www.twitch.tv/pobelter

Meat vs CLG.na scrims. Pobelter playing top irelia and 4-0 vs HotshotnidaleeGG. Straight up outplaying him. But ofc doublelift is doing work.

So, what you're saying is, it's like every CLG.na game ever played?
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 16:06 sharky246 wrote:
Despite all the overinflated ego and negative attitude in clg.na, they have better results than tsm, one of the few teams in na with well-mannered players.

Uh... I dunno where you came up with this idea... TSM pretty much dominated NA scene all of S2. with CLG mostly grabbing 2nd place, and wasting time in Korea.

no i'm talking about the recent event, which was mlg.
On January 03 2011 13:14 IdrA wrote: being high on the ladder doesnt get you any closer to your goal. Avoiding practice to protect your rating is absurd. If you want to be good go play 40 games a day and stop thinking about becoming a pro.
Celial
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
2602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 07:19:18
November 28 2012 07:17 GMT
#4630
On November 28 2012 14:53 cLutZ wrote:
So. I want to run this theory by you guys.

TSM has had, relatively (to other NA teams and frankly even some EU/KR teams, and their normal schedule) little stream time. I have to assume that this means that TSM is pushing hard to accomplish something at IPL5. If that doesn't happen I think we can assume they have peaked as a team and I wouldn't hold my breath on them for any significant S3 events.

Teams like CLG.NA and Curse have had relatively recent lineup changes, they still have a somewhat legit excuse if they don't do well, also judging by their "we stream everything" attitude this is not the peak performance they could be at. But TSM, they really need a strong showing, otherwise it feels like they are done, not literally of course, but in need of some serious soul searching.


I think they stream so little because they constantly keep moving because everytime they moved into a new house someone shows their home and ip adress on stream. /troll

Idk man, TSM seems to have more mental issues than mechanical. Last summer when they raped face they were a strong unity, were one of the best teamfighters in the world (remember that epic series with CLG.EU?) and mechanically very sound. Very little mistakes.

Nowadays some of their mechanics are lacking (botlane specifically, Regi still beast with champions he actually practices). Their teamfights look kinda weak. There are really stupid decisions.

I don't want to say that they are bad, lol. Just sometimes when someone on TSM tries to make a play it looks like they tried so hard and fell short inches off the goal. Like when Regi ganks botlane, gets both down to a sliver of health, they are already safe at their turret and TSM decides to dive, gets kited around the turrent and die.
Also, Dyrus really bad at salvaging a lost lane, should learn from his buddy-buddy Wickd.
TOO ganks haven't been that good either, his style (especially Maokai and Nunu) has been figured out, I think.

Edit: But in regard to the S3 thing, with the focus on localized scenes instead of global events I think TSM will provide good entertainment as always. They gonna stomp NA, maybe have some close games with Dig/CLG and roll the newcomers. And that's what eSports is all about. The entertainment value of a team. TSM has that.
Do not regret. Always forward, never back.
wussleeQ
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States3130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 07:28:15
November 28 2012 07:26 GMT
#4631
I don't get matchmaking lol.

Our team ELO-
1655, 1732, 1816, 1803 and 1784 = 1758 average
Their team ELO-
1787, 1764, 2128, 2228, and 1771 = 1935 average
I'm just a bit curious on how we managed to get matched together
BW -> League -> CSGO
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
November 28 2012 07:46 GMT
#4632
I'm still surprised by the S2 where most of the teams are screaming at each other in team fights, while essentially only the finals teams (azubu and Taipei) actually had the shot caller... calling the shots. It really should be like WoW arena 2's or 3's. Literally no talking except for needed information. When cd's are up, when you need peels, when you're being cc'd etc.
Perplex
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1693 Posts
November 28 2012 07:50 GMT
#4633
On November 28 2012 16:46 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
I'm still surprised by the S2 where most of the teams are screaming at each other in team fights, while essentially only the finals teams (azubu and Taipei) actually had the shot caller... calling the shots. It really should be like WoW arena 2's or 3's. Literally no talking except for needed information. When cd's are up, when you need peels, when you're being cc'd etc.


or just play some cleave comp instead of RMP and say nothing while zerging random targets and getting glad for free
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24238059
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 07:52:08
November 28 2012 07:50 GMT
#4634
On November 28 2012 16:26 wussleeQ wrote:
I don't get matchmaking lol.

Our team ELO-
1655, 1732, 1816, 1803 and 1784 = 1758 average
Their team ELO-
1787, 1764, 2128, 2228, and 1771 = 1935 average
I'm just a bit curious on how we managed to get matched together

sounds like my past like 20 games ~_~
on another top

elise top is obnoxious as fuck.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 28 2012 07:53 GMT
#4635
i think she pretty broken to be honest but i cannot support this claim by any evidence, just a feeling
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 08:16:53
November 28 2012 07:58 GMT
#4636
On November 28 2012 16:06 sharky246 wrote:
Despite all the overinflated ego and negative attitude in clg.na, they have better results than tsm, one of the few teams in na with well-mannered players.


What games are you watching? MLG Dallas was a better finish in name only. Was just another "move along" tournament for NA.

On November 28 2012 16:17 Celial wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 14:53 cLutZ wrote:
So. I want to run this theory by you guys.

TSM has had, relatively (to other NA teams and frankly even some EU/KR teams, and their normal schedule) little stream time. I have to assume that this means that TSM is pushing hard to accomplish something at IPL5. If that doesn't happen I think we can assume they have peaked as a team and I wouldn't hold my breath on them for any significant S3 events.

Teams like CLG.NA and Curse have had relatively recent lineup changes, they still have a somewhat legit excuse if they don't do well, also judging by their "we stream everything" attitude this is not the peak performance they could be at. But TSM, they really need a strong showing, otherwise it feels like they are done, not literally of course, but in need of some serious soul searching.


I think they stream so little because they constantly keep moving because everytime they moved into a new house someone shows their home and ip adress on stream. /troll

Idk man, TSM seems to have more mental issues than mechanical. Last summer when they raped face they were a strong unity, were one of the best teamfighters in the world (remember that epic series with CLG.EU?) and mechanically very sound. Very little mistakes.

Nowadays some of their mechanics are lacking (botlane specifically, Regi still beast with champions he actually practices). Their teamfights look kinda weak. There are really stupid decisions.

I don't want to say that they are bad, lol. Just sometimes when someone on TSM tries to make a play it looks like they tried so hard and fell short inches off the goal. Like when Regi ganks botlane, gets both down to a sliver of health, they are already safe at their turret and TSM decides to dive, gets kited around the turrent and die.
Also, Dyrus really bad at salvaging a lost lane, should learn from his buddy-buddy Wickd.
TOO ganks haven't been that good either, his style (especially Maokai and Nunu) has been figured out, I think.

Edit: But in regard to the S3 thing, with the focus on localized scenes instead of global events I think TSM will provide good entertainment as always. They gonna stomp NA, maybe have some close games with Dig/CLG and roll the newcomers. And that's what eSports is all about. The entertainment value of a team. TSM has that.


I feel like TSM has personalities capable of becoming extremely depressed/rage if something doesn't go well. Of course they can always go back to getting 20k viewers on soloQ (although ur point about moving is interesting), and being a top 3 (likely 2/1) NA, but it seems like they take the "NA Sucks" harder than other teams.

On November 28 2012 16:50 Perplex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 16:46 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
I'm still surprised by the S2 where most of the teams are screaming at each other in team fights, while essentially only the finals teams (azubu and Taipei) actually had the shot caller... calling the shots. It really should be like WoW arena 2's or 3's. Literally no talking except for needed information. When cd's are up, when you need peels, when you're being cc'd etc.


or just play some cleave comp instead of RMP and say nothing while zerging random targets and getting glad for free


Screw RMP, only reason my Warrior/Pally(me)/Lock team was Duelist in S1/2 instead of glad. We couldn't figure that comp out.

Luckily, 2345 existed
Freeeeeeedom
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
November 28 2012 07:58 GMT
#4637
On November 28 2012 16:53 OutlaW- wrote:
i think she pretty broken to be honest but i cannot support this claim by any evidence, just a feeling

I like how she gets a pretty good aoe nuke(spiderling thing) and then 2 prenerf jayce E's that dont share cooldown lolol.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 28 2012 08:49 GMT
#4638
On November 28 2012 15:39 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 14:54 UniversalSnip wrote:
craton if you could pick any one dude to put on clg who would it be. i want to know who you hate the least in the world.

Jiji's my favorite player.

Someone not currently on an NA team, most likely. NA has a really bad habit of recycling players instead of finding new talent. I'd sooner have left Chauster as support and replaced Hotshot + Voyboy, but I digress.

There are obviously players worth picking up that exist (e.g. Rhux), teams just need to take the effort to try out new players in scrims instead of just immediately deciding "I'm taking XYZ that I'm friends with, inability at a role or in general notwithstanding." At the very least, if you're going to keep recycling players, keep them in the role they want to be doing. It does nobody any good when they spend most of their time playing a different role / set of champs / begrudging their position.

Show nested quote +
On November 28 2012 15:31 sung_moon wrote:
On November 28 2012 14:48 OutlaW- wrote:
yeah. its no rocket science at this point but koreans are so successful because they generally dont have big egos. CLG.na is basically 4 big ''alpha'' egos constantly struggling to show dominance and that the other guy's mistake was bigger than his own, ultimately failing to improve as a team at all. Chauster has been good about this recently, but until they realize that arguing leads to nowhere they will never be a top team in the long term. The only guy I hear making reasonable claims and overall being calm is jiji but he cant really say shit because he knows its gonna cause a shitstorm. I guess this has been talked about a lot already, sorry. im just mad as hell


After watching DLift play team 5's now, I find it so funny how true this is. Seems like Jiji is the only voice of reason on that team. Amazing thing is, apparently what im hearing from my friend who got me into League/you guys on this forum that it was even worse back then.

How can you enjoy playing with these ppl rofl.

It was definitely way worse with SV on the team. During that time CLG would often bring up how they preferred playing with Kobe over SV because he was (and still is) laid back.

I don't really know how you fix the CLG argument train with Hotshot having such a dominating role in the team. Ideally you'd have a level-headed coach to sort problems out rationally and calmly, but CLG's so established (egos have grown large) and Hotshot has such a controlling interest that even with a coach you'd have everything still bubbling just under the surface. Even if Hotshot were to quit as player and become the manager he isn't geared toward resolving inter-personal conflicts.

Chauster is a generally smart player, but he's often blunt and has an overgrown need to be right, even when he isn't or the the truth is somewhere in the middle (e.g. when he was laying into Loco about the Oracle situation toward the end of the last scrim). A good coach would help reign that in.

Jiji's a mellow guy.

Doublelift's ego has grown considerably in a relatively short time-frame, further exacerbated now that he's the "leader" of the bot lane. He used to be reigned in a bit by Chauster being the support, but he still made no shortage of inane statements that everyone loved to quote and laugh at on the forums.

Loco's getting into just as many arguments with Doublelift as anyone else on the team, fostered by the atmosphere of arguing, but also because he makes a very large number of misplays (and CLG loves to pick apart misplays in the middle of games, often with arguments on all sides being based on partially inaccurate information).

Hotshot is Hotshot. He does his own thing no matter what, even when it's the wrong decision. Chauster loves to lay into these poor choices and Hotshot loves to argue the plays of the other 4 or dispute that his misplay was the right play.

At the very least, CLG (Hotshot) doesn't seem to have a case of arguing from the position of "I own this team, you do what I say."

i wish loco reads this discussion. i really want clg.na to improve. :/
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Parnage
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States7414 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-28 08:54:50
November 28 2012 08:51 GMT
#4639
Want to fix CLG? Group therapy and anger management along with a strong coach who makes the final decision and has the authority to tell the players to knock it off or else. In short highly unlikely to happen but if it did it'd certainly fix many of the problems CLG.NA has at the moment.

Unrelated, hell yeah 2345 comps Good ol days of ele shamaning that it was.

Thanks sir...lol
-orb- Fan. Live the Nal_rA dream. || Yordles are cool.
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
November 28 2012 08:52 GMT
#4640
hotshot already has a strong couch
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
Prev 1 230 231 232 233 234 280 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
PiGosaur Cup #53
Liquipedia
OSC
23:00
OSC Masters Cup #150 Qual #1
davetesta35
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 41
Ketroc 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 1538
Leta 529
Sharp 30
Dota 2
monkeys_forever454
LuMiX0
League of Legends
JimRising 493
Counter-Strike
fl0m1496
PGG 72
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox407
Other Games
summit1g6745
shahzam631
Day[9].tv563
C9.Mang0280
ViBE249
Skadoodle189
Maynarde140
fpsfer 3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1105
BasetradeTV34
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 42
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• ZZZeroYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV724
• Ler45
League of Legends
• Doublelift4945
• HappyZerGling161
• Stunt127
Other Games
• Scarra603
• Day9tv563
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
8h 24m
OSC
10h 24m
Wardi Open
1d 9h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Safe House 2
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Safe House 2
3 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.