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On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection.
I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right.
There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build.
If this this change does go through, the real affect I could see it having on ADC's in pro play is extremely aggressive armor pen builds early on, and push for far more aggressive mid game (like the mpen builds from ap carries). I could see ez's going phage->brut->triforce->lw. or something like that. aphro will be happy with this change, he's the only adc I see build brutalizer.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build.
CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it?
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On October 26 2012 03:38 Slayer91 wrote:
Competing with the efficiency of dorans blades is hard, and with the efficiency of the IE-PD or BT-PD combo is also really hard.
yeah that's not gonna happen. stacking armor pen makes sense on heroes that are extremely reliant on physical damage that doesn't scale off those stats
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On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it?
I'm sure he thinks that way because those 3 are the only 3 who have ad based skill ?
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On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it?
Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame.
flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. (could probably add cait to the 3 i mentioned)
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When I try to play it says north america is "undefined". Happening to anyone else?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly.
ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one.
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On October 26 2012 03:46 IMoperator wrote:
When I try to play it says north america is "undefined". Happening to anyone else?
it says that more me also but its patching for me
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On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one.
The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item.
This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup)
On October 26 2012 03:53 Slusher wrote:
naming ADs that would get something out of CDR and not mentioning Varus??? I go soul shroud first when I support a Varus.
Well, I was talking about recently more popular ADC picks. I haven't seen varus in a tourney pick, except like aphro in like one super small ass tourney.
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naming ADs that would get something out of CDR and not mentioning Varus??? I go soul shroud first when I support a Varus.
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On October 26 2012 03:29 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:21 Derby wrote:
So I just faced Lee Sin mid. I decided to try Ryze since I thought he's one of those AP carries who can get armor without sacrificing too much damage. My goal was to get an early Glacial Shroud. I used armorseals just to be safe. Everything went pretty well until Lee Sin managed to kill my jungler (who actually just had killed their Amumu in the enemy jungle). After that it went downhill. He started to hit like a truck and could just roam freely since I totally lost control of my lane.
Our AD-carry told me I should have just rushed for a Tear from the beginning and pushed his lane so he couldn't roam freely. I said that I didn't want to take any risks since a Lee Sin hurts like hell once he hits one Q if you dont have any armor. The AD proceeded to tell me that it was my fault that the Lee Sin got out of hand. One Tear would have solved all my problems and I shouldn't have played Ryze at all if I didn't want to build it as my first item.
What I'm wondering is if it was completely wrong of me to try Ryze vs Lee Sin and if not, should I have just rushed Tear? Our jungler admitted that he wasn't very good at jungling so I couldn't really depend too much on him. Maybe I should have just used an AP that's better at pushing and escaping? tear of the goddess is awful l0l. all it gives is mana. Imo don't build it unless you're ahead in lane.
Well, it does give Ryze damage since he scales with mana and AP. Don't you build that stuff on Ryze anymore? I hardly see any Ryzes anymore so I'm not too sure what items are standard on him atm. I do know that RoA is standard after the changes of course but I was under the impression that RoA was the only item that seperated the "new" Ryze from the old.
On October 26 2012 03:22 wei2coolman wrote:
Against something like Lee Sin, starting catalyst isn't a bad idea, health scales better early on, than resistances, especially at early levels. Catalyst -> glacial shroud is prolly best bet in that lane.
Ah yes of course! Thanks for the tip. My mindset was pretty much to farm and not try anything crazy. I guess my fear of feeding a Lee Sin just short circuited my brain and made me forget all about that item >.<
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United States47024 Posts
On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup)
What a coincidence, midgame teamfight power is already the characteristic that defines the most commonly picked ADs at the moment.
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On October 26 2012 03:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup) What a coincidence, midgame teamfight power is already the characteristic that defines the most commonly picked ADs at the moment.
Oddly enough that's what they're nerfing to the ground too. lol.
Plus there are still plenty of comps surrounding lategame, rather than just midgame. It might make midgame comps stronger, but that's not to say it'll make midgame comps the prevalent meta.
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On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup)
actually no, Brutalizer becomes more powerful with more items, ignoring the first 10% of an opponents armor is significantly less of a dps increase than the last 10%
going from ignoring 0% to 1% of somebodys armor is a significantly smaller dps increase than going from 99% ->100% which is actually even tho it does not look like it a massive dps increase.
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On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one.
To follow up on this, currently the only runes worse than Armor Penetration for the purposes of auto-attacking late-game are Flat AD. With this change Armor Penetration becomes better than any other option by an appreciable margin. Taking into account AD/AS steroids only increases this margin.
GB/B used to be a legit AD carry build for a reason.
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On October 26 2012 03:58 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup) actually no, Brutalizer becomes more powerful with more items, ignoring the first 10% of an opponents armor is significantly less of a dps increase than the last 10% going from ignoring 0% to 1% of somebodys armor is a significantly smaller dps increase than going from 99% ->100% which is actually even tho it does not look like it a massive dps increase.
Are you trying to argue that a brutalizer is better than a 2nd PD, after a BT/LW/IE/PD(triforce)?
On October 26 2012 04:02 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw, not to mentioning the fact bruisers sometimes run full armor pen runes/quints. so it's more significant for bruisers, than adc. % and flat APen once worked the way they are trying to make it work now. It was changed precisely because it is too strong. Nobody cares about 6 item builds when your AD carry can shoot the enemy tanks for true damage. Something like a Doran Bruta LW build will apply huge amounts of pressure assuming you can deal with the enemy AP. If you go Bruta on Ashe I would recommend either APen or MSpd quints. Certainly not AD. The whole point of CDR Ashe is to spam Volley from a safe distance, punishing squishy teamcomps hard. It's not exactly good against tanky teams though.
I still don't understand the brutalizer ashe build. sure it makes sense if you're playing proving grounds, where you're spamming volley the second it comes off cooldown, and you almost never run out of mana. But, in 2v2 botlane (when you're gunna get bruta, around the timing of your first bf, traditionally) volley spam is not quite as effective, or not any more effective than bruta cait/bruta graves. nor any more effective than traditional BF sword on Ashe.
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On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:27 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:25 TheYango wrote:
What's still totally unclear is what the *goal* of this change is. Because I haven't been able to think of an objective that this change is meant to accomplish. I think it was suppose to buff lategame bruiser, so they're a bigger damage threat in lategame. Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw, not to mentioning the fact bruisers sometimes run full armor pen runes/quints. so it's more significant for bruisers, than adc.
% and flat APen once worked the way they are trying to make it work now. It was changed precisely because it is too strong.
Nobody cares about 6 item builds when your AD carry can shoot the enemy tanks for true damage. Something like a Doran Bruta LW build will apply huge amounts of pressure assuming you can deal with the enemy AP.
If you go Bruta on Ashe I would recommend either APen or MSpd quints. Certainly not AD. The whole point of CDR Ashe is to spam Volley from a safe distance, punishing squishy teamcomps hard. It's not exactly good against tanky teams though.
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On October 26 2012 04:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:58 Slusher wrote:On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:29 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
Then this seems like an odd way to do it, given that the flat/% pen interaction is much more relevant for AD carries. Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery. bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup) actually no, Brutalizer becomes more powerful with more items, ignoring the first 10% of an opponents armor is significantly less of a dps increase than the last 10% going from ignoring 0% to 1% of somebodys armor is a significantly smaller dps increase than going from 99% ->100% which is actually even tho it does not look like it a massive dps increase. Are you trying to argue that a brutalizer is better than a 2nd PD, after a BT/LW/IE/PD(triforce)?
if that change goes live it probly will be. although cleaver would be even better, and cleaver would increase the dps that bruta does even more. I haven't done the math on what will be the most dps yet, but something involving Bruta/lw/BC could be competitive.
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wtb ranked ques being enabled 
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On October 26 2012 04:08 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 04:01 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:58 Slusher wrote:On October 26 2012 03:52 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:46 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:43 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:40 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On October 26 2012 03:35 TheYango wrote:On October 26 2012 03:33 wei2coolman wrote:
[quote]
Not really. The only interaction between flat and % for adc is the runes with Last whisperer and mastery.
bruisers are the only ones that buy flat armorpen with brutalizer, and % penetration, with lw. There's no rule that bruisers are the only champs in the game that buy brutalizer and there's nothing BAD about brutalizer on ADs. If the change makes the combination good enough, then it helps ADs more because their primary target selection is more likely to involve champs on which the interaction change is significant. It's a completely fallacious way to balance itemz by assuming that a given role will be the only one to select buying the item. Rather, you have to be thinking how your change will affect role item selection. I'm just explaining the reasoning behind it, I never said it was right. There are only a few ADC that actually itemizes well with Brutalizer, the only ones I can think of are sivir,ez,graves? And that's only when they're completely stompign the lane and want to snowball it even harder. Bruisers on the other hand are far more likely to buy brutalizer in their normal builds, as opposed to a niche pick. so yes, this change is going to affect bruisers far more than adc's, though that's not to say if this change goes through, that it won't affect how adc's build. CDR/AD/ArPen is a stat combination that has the potential to be good on any AD. How are those 3 the only ones that itemize well with it? Because lifesteal/damage, and critchance/critdamage/damage usually scales better, and multiplicatively into lategame. flat arpen/ad/cdr scales much more linearly. ArPen is also a multiplicative damage stat that factors into the right-click damage equation, and one that will perform significantly better if the change goes through. CDR is hard to value because it's a utility stat, not just a straight damage one. The problem with ArPen, is that in a full 6item build, Brutalizer's arpen is far far less appealing than to another traditional ADC item. This change will only affect ADC's that want to play super ridiculously strong midgame play. This is what might happen with arpen/%pen, change. Teams will set up 2v1 lanes, shove the shit out of the 2v1 lane, try and take turret as early as possible. ADC builds 1dblade+brutalizer+vamp scept+lw, start roaming and force super low econ game, and try and win the game in midgame. (also, nunu+strong midgame adc, will be king comps in this type of midgame setup) actually no, Brutalizer becomes more powerful with more items, ignoring the first 10% of an opponents armor is significantly less of a dps increase than the last 10% going from ignoring 0% to 1% of somebodys armor is a significantly smaller dps increase than going from 99% ->100% which is actually even tho it does not look like it a massive dps increase. Are you trying to argue that a brutalizer is better than a 2nd PD, after a BT/LW/IE/PD(triforce)? if that change goes live it probly will be. although cleaver would be even better, and cleaver would increase the dps that bruta does even more. I haven't done the math on what will be the most dps yet, but something involving Bruta/lw/BC could be competitive.
BC is armor shred, it's always been accounted BEFORE Armor Pen, and %pen.
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EPT
