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United States23745 Posts
On October 03 2012 01:18 TheYango wrote:Random fun DotA/LoL related fact: the guy who made the loading screen art for the new version of DotA 1 also works for Riot and did a lot of art for the Chinese LoL client. http://suke84.deviantart.com/Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 00:59 onlywonderboy wrote:
I don't quite understand the argument for "making everything OP" being the answer to perfect balance. All I can see this doing is increase the skill gap between players at low levels. Then when players of equal skill are playing, the only difference is the damage numbers are bigger and people die quicker. That just doesn't sound appealing to me. If you increase the baseline power of champions, it increases the potential effect that individual plays can have on the overall game-flow. It also delays the point at which teamfight outcomes become a natural product of the gold/item disparity goint into them, which creates more opportunities for comebacks. Higher power level also lets you play with more interesting designs, as many powerful mechanics are not amenable to being easily balanced in a low-power environment. Long-duration stealth is a well-known, if somewhat unpopular, example of a mechanic that has been too troublesome to balance in a low-power environment due to the amount of give-and-take needed to make a champion with long-duration stealth fair for LoL's champ pool (long-duration stealth champs effectively needed to be gimped in pretty much every other aspect in order to make them fair).
Okay, I can see that line of thought. I don't think it would make me enjoy the game more, but I can see how there would be benefits to this model of balance.
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United States1898 Posts
So I have been jungling a lot of Amumu recently...
Pen builds into rylais and sunfire are so strong on him. I faced an amumu that went Ryalis so I wanted to try it and its really fun and strong.
I typically go Boots + 3 -> 2 drings i get Guise sometimes, skip it if I am not getting kills generally, Sorcs, Rylais/Abyssal/Sunfire
Games generally have been ending before I get to try the whole build but its really really strong early so you should be aiming to win before the AD carry is farmed enough to kill you. You do crazy damage and can still tank well with the mix of stats. I suggest people who like amumu try it if you havent. Way more fun than the gp5 tanky builds most people do.
I am 1650~ elo doing this as a disclaimer
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United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2012 01:23 Alaric wrote:
I know there's the "but there are only few people that can play her well", but you don't need that to look at her numbers, and the spells' descriptions, and think "wow, she packs everything". Lulu was deemed like this at release and subsequently nerfed, Janna was deemed as too strong in the damage department and that you shouldn't be able to run an AP with so much utility, and nerfed. Jayce, though not nerfed, is a known issue of this "I have everything" too. So, how is it that for so long (I'd write "for several years", but maybe there was a time where she wasn't broken before I played so.. ) she's been so godlike without anybody lifting even a finger about it?
Since she's often played at tournies, too, it's not like she's secret OP either, everyone knows about it.
Well she still isn't as frustrating as a fed Rengar or Kha'Zix I'll admit.
Historically, Anivia has been something of a model for "where AP casters should be balanced around". It's possible that Riot is carefully re-evaluating this.
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On October 03 2012 01:23 Alaric wrote:
Ugh, I'll never get around Anivia. I don't understand how people can talk about Irelia saying that she's very strong because whichever nerfs you'll slam onto her won't reduce the diversity of her kit (gap closer, cc, true damage, sustain) and not have a syncope at the mere thought of Anivia.
She isn't a good support because her laning phase wouldn't be that good (well let's rather say that Alistar/Leona/Blitz are better at what they do), but in the mid to late game? Anivia could have had almost no cs, fed, been destroyed in lane, she'd still be full of utility just off of cdr for her wall, mana/mp5 for her ult, and she'd burst squishies without having much AP because her Q and E have broken as fuck scaling as is.
But guess what? She doesn't even have a bad laning phase, as long as she's got blue buff she's the safest pusher in the game, hard to gank, best farming ability of all champs, good range and you have to kill her twice.
I know there's the "but there are only few people that can play her well", but you don't need that to look at her numbers, and the spells' descriptions, and think "wow, she packs everything". Lulu was deemed like this at release and subsequently nerfed, Janna was deemed as too strong in the damage department and that you shouldn't be able to run an AP with so much utility, and nerfed. Jayce, though not nerfed, is a known issue of this "I have everything" too. So, how is it that for so long (I'd write "for several years", but maybe there was a time where she wasn't broken before I played so.. ) she's been so godlike without anybody lifting even a finger about it?
Since she's often played at tournies, too, it's not like she's secret OP either, everyone knows about it.
Well she still isn't as frustrating as a fed Rengar or Kha'Zix I'll admit.
I do wish she'd get nerfed, I love when people can build any item they choose and still out damage like every other ap in the game. its pretty awesome
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Btw this evening it's oGaming.tv LoL launch for season 2 !
http://www.ogaming.tv/streams
Only a French team though, but I'll be there to show my m4d commentating skills, and I'll more than certainly do a shoutout to TL ! ^_^
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I got mid 9 out of 10 last games in normal draft. Interesting.
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IMO Anivia is strong in lane, struggles a bit early because she has high mana costs and a terrible auto animation and can get pushed, but post 6 becomes a nightmare for the other team if they can't deny blue. Only weak point is she is a rather weak roamer because she loses to a lot of champs 1v1 if she gets caught.
Her lategame is undeniably strong, if not the strongest out of all the AP's. Enough damage to basically one shot a carry(no DFG required), massive zone control/CC and basically prevents people from even touching tower for fear of getting caught by a wall unless they can dive.
I don't know how they could nerf her without destroying the feel though, because a lot of her power is in utility, it's just that she also scales ridiculously hard with AP and CDR. Nerfs to E would hurt her early laning even more without addressing anything about her lategame, mana costs are already basically highest in the game, Q isn't really maxed early, wall is unique and on long enough CD that adding a few seconds won't hurt, and her ultimate would be strong for teamfighting even if it didn't do as much damage as it does right now.
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On October 02 2012 19:25 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
I've been thinking about it and I'm really unhappy with the champions riot has been releasing lately. The power levels have just been so inconsistent and some of them are really painful to play against.
Darius: Incredibly unfun to play against, blatantly broken on release. I feel like the number of yorick level "this fucking sucks" champs doubled when he came out.
Jayce: Really...? Such a non-interactive kit. It's the same as the old designs where melees would deal damage and block counterplay with huge, free shields or heals, except this time it's tons of disengage that costs no mana instead. Here's another guy that's fucking lame to lane against, at least he's only teir 2 or 3 in obnoxiousness and he can't use Bore to Tears if you're in a different lane. They didn't really peg his power on release either, expecting another nerf.
Zyra: No complaints about the champ... just they completely whiffed the release balance... again. Before this list you have to go back to graves to find a champ that was released ridiculously broken, or maybe naut if you're a huge wuss.
Diana: Released pretty op. has some role confusion but I don't hate her like I do the next release, everyone can agree she's tolerable at worst.
Rengar: lol. King of this list. This guy went straight up to number 1 on my toxicity charts, playing rengar's top target is probably the most unfun experience you can consistently have in this game. Why would a champion like this exist?! The difficulty finding the counterplay required to even survive vs this guy is insane! Shutting him down is another story entirely. If you've had the Rengar Experience you know exactly what i'm talking about, it's just indisputable that he never should have made it to release with this skill set.
Syndra: Thank you riot! I'm so glad this hero breaks the pattern, you have no idea.
I probably whine less about balance than 90% of the regular posters here, but this shit cannot stand. The more I think about it the more the last couple months have made the game substantially worse for me. I just do not want to play hoping an increasing number of champions don't show up so that I can have a good time. While I'd tend to agree with you, I remember close to the end of last year people were saying the same thing, around the time Talon-Graves-Xerath were released in quick succession. Riot did nerf all three into being at least not obnoxious, if not necessarily viable.
Those guys aren't even near on the same level though, and more significantly, they're supposed to have gotten better since then!
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On October 03 2012 01:48 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2012 01:23 Alaric wrote:
Ugh, I'll never get around Anivia. I don't understand how people can talk about Irelia saying that she's very strong because whichever nerfs you'll slam onto her won't reduce the diversity of her kit (gap closer, cc, true damage, sustain) and not have a syncope at the mere thought of Anivia.
She isn't a good support because her laning phase wouldn't be that good (well let's rather say that Alistar/Leona/Blitz are better at what they do), but in the mid to late game? Anivia could have had almost no cs, fed, been destroyed in lane, she'd still be full of utility just off of cdr for her wall, mana/mp5 for her ult, and she'd burst squishies without having much AP because her Q and E have broken as fuck scaling as is.
But guess what? She doesn't even have a bad laning phase, as long as she's got blue buff she's the safest pusher in the game, hard to gank, best farming ability of all champs, good range and you have to kill her twice.
I know there's the "but there are only few people that can play her well", but you don't need that to look at her numbers, and the spells' descriptions, and think "wow, she packs everything". Lulu was deemed like this at release and subsequently nerfed, Janna was deemed as too strong in the damage department and that you shouldn't be able to run an AP with so much utility, and nerfed. Jayce, though not nerfed, is a known issue of this "I have everything" too. So, how is it that for so long (I'd write "for several years", but maybe there was a time where she wasn't broken before I played so.. ) she's been so godlike without anybody lifting even a finger about it?
Since she's often played at tournies, too, it's not like she's secret OP either, everyone knows about it.
Well she still isn't as frustrating as a fed Rengar or Kha'Zix I'll admit. Didn't Riot know that Malphite was OP for a long time, but didn't nerf him until he reached FotM status because they didn't want to look like they were doing random nerfs for no reason? "OMG roit why you nerfing underplayed champions they have no idea what they're doing lolol" They might know that Anivia is OP as fuck but are holding off on nerfs until the general LoL population reaches that conclusion too.
See, I don't see Anivia as necessarily overpowered. Her kit is extremely strong, but she is very comp and team dependent, in soloQ (IDK about pros). Her CSing is pretty tough Pre-6, and post 6 (pre~16) she is very blue dependent for lane control. Even with blue her ganking potential is not that great because one of her strengths is being able to get egged under tower (not possible if you are roaming).
Anivia is the Ashe of AP carries, with a little Kog Maw mixed in.
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Huh? Walls, slows, and stuns are bad ganking tools?
I mean, she's slow, but if she shows up in a lane that's not expecting it or gets behind a fleeing enemy, there's no escaping Anivia or her team. Plus, she's a godly roamer if your lanes are getting pushed. Show up, ult the wave, wall off enemy, then go back because you successfully defended the tower and turtled a lane with like 3 buttons.
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I dunno, her ult+wall is enough to screw up any teamcomp that doesn't use a lot of mobility/jump spells. Yango talked about how a Diana first pick can influence the drafting process, but would you pick Udyr, Mundo or Draven if the enemy team first pick Anivia?
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Yeah Riot definitely leans on making new champions better than average on release. Financially it makes sense in order to drive up sales and excitement.
Game play wise I think it is fine. New OP champs can change up the meta and make the game more interesting. If they are truly way too strong, they can just be permabanned for a month until Riot gets in there. Champs like Syndra actually makes my game worse because I know I am going to lose 70% of the time if I get a Syndra on my team.
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It honestly is just kind of a shift in design. Newer champions have very clear, synergistic kits that make them godly at what they do, while many older champions were just kind of thrown together under the idea of "this is his signature move or theme, these other abilities would be cool too". Someone like Yi or Sion feels underpowered in my opinion because, while their kits are cool and make sense in theory, the abilities don't really synergize with themselves on a deeper level. Champs nowadays have abilities that all scale properly, work together well, and bring kits that have a lot of variety and flexiblity.
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On October 03 2012 03:24 JokerSan wrote:
Yeah Riot definitely leans on making new champions better than average on release. Financially it makes sense in order to drive up sales and excitement.
Game play wise I think it is fine. New OP champs can change up the meta and make the game more interesting. If they are truly way too strong, they can just be permabanned for a month until Riot gets in there. Champs like Syndra actually makes my game worse because I know I am going to lose 70% of the time if I get a Syndra on my team.
Making champions better on average on release isn't even necessarily a financially motivated move. Even DotA has a trend of releasing heroes that are on the powerful side on release.
The issue is that if you release a champion that sucks, then no one will play them and you'll lack the data needed to balance it properly. Sure, you have the PBE, but the player pool for the PBE is quite limited and doesn't encompass the player pool of release. Look at the "shitty" champion releases like Sejuani and Karma. Their kits have the potential to be such great picks, but their release state was just so bad that absolutely no one plays them. Riot can't and probably doesn't even bother trying to balance them due to lack of data.
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On October 03 2012 03:23 Requizen wrote:
Huh? Walls, slows, and stuns are bad ganking tools?
I mean, she's slow, but if she shows up in a lane that's not expecting it or gets behind a fleeing enemy, there's no escaping Anivia or her team. Plus, she's a godly roamer if your lanes are getting pushed. Show up, ult the wave, wall off enemy, then go back because you successfully defended the tower and turtled a lane with like 3 buttons.
Very true, I was talking more about if one is caught out + the low movement speed. She has great map presence, just it is more risky than roaming as Ahri, Morgana, TF, Diana, or Kat. Those are all strong champions as well. I'm not making the argument she is UP, rather that I don't think nerfs are needed.
On October 03 2012 03:23 Alaric wrote:
I dunno, her ult+wall is enough to screw up any teamcomp that doesn't use a lot of mobility/jump spells. Yango talked about how a Diana first pick can influence the drafting process, but would you pick Udyr, Mundo or Draven if the enemy team first pick Anivia?
No. But there are a bunch of Jungle Champs, I would never select against guys like Nunu (who can play 3 roles) or Shyv who are safer first picks than a solo lane champ.
My overall point is: we should want there to be lategame AP carries. The ones I can think of are Karthus, Anivia, and Cass. We also don't want the lategame AP carries to have to struggle though early/midgame like a Vayne because that would mean a Vayne + XXX super lategame team would just get stomped early. The meta is already very Early-Focused. Better to let Anivia stand than to keep encouraging the GG at 25 mins meta.
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On October 03 2012 03:31 Requizen wrote:
It honestly is just kind of a shift in design. Newer champions have very clear, synergistic kits that make them godly at what they do, while many older champions were just kind of thrown together under the idea of "this is his signature move or theme, these other abilities would be cool too". Someone like Yi or Sion feels underpowered in my opinion because, while their kits are cool and make sense in theory, the abilities don't really synergize with themselves on a deeper level. Champs nowadays have abilities that all scale properly, work together well, and bring kits that have a lot of variety and flexiblity.
arguably, the newer champs are balanced towards the current meta as well, whereas the older champs are balanced towards whatever meta was in play back then.
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United States1898 Posts
Except new champions aren't balanced. Period. They habe alll been ahead of the power curve
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So the honor system is full of shit as expected. I played two game, won two, got instantly rewarded with the "team work" and "friendly" vote each time without doing anything or saying anything in the game (playing mid and support). Because yeah the only way to get that is to win -.-
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On October 03 2012 03:23 Requizen wrote:
Huh? Walls, slows, and stuns are bad ganking tools?
I mean, she's slow, but if she shows up in a lane that's not expecting it or gets behind a fleeing enemy, there's no escaping Anivia or her team. Plus, she's a godly roamer if your lanes are getting pushed. Show up, ult the wave, wall off enemy, then go back because you successfully defended the tower and turtled a lane with like 3 buttons.
if she gets caught in a 1v1 while traveling to another lane, she's going to lose the 1v1 duel. other mids can either 1v1 real well, so even if they get caught traveling to other lane they can win the fight, or force disengage. It's sort of like karthus, that wall is ridiculously good for ganking, but he never leaves midlane because if he gets caught out, he's pretty much dead meat. (and cuz he can just press R). anivia has no karthus 'r' to make up lack of lane presence in midgame, that's her weakness. She's not the end all or be all of AP mids, and it'd be silly to suggest she is. She has weaknesses, and strengths, both of which are pretty extreme.
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On October 02 2012 21:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 18:04 overt wrote:
I'm pretty sure Diana is gonna be picked or banned in way more games at S2 than people realize. Most AP mids realize how stupid she is. jiji said on release that she's one of the most OP champions Riot has ever created.
To go along with what Yango said, Diana is stupid as first pick. There's really no bad lane match ups that she has mid. And she can be run top lane. I guarantee you won't see Diana picked or banned once at Worlds. As an aside, OH GOD THE WAIT ON THIS RIVEN SKIN IS KILLING ME!
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. I may have overstated how often Diana will or won't be picked but when you see pro players of different roles and different play styles all pick up and learn the same champion and then use her in pro games it's pretty obvious she's strong and will likely see play. Froggen, Alex Ich, and Voyboy all picked her up. All three have played her in a competitive environment. All three have radically different styles of playing this game and completely different champions they prefer playing as. Yet all three play Diana because of just how much she brings to a team.
Doesn't hurt that Diana will be the last released champion allowed at S2 since Rengar is disabled. Meaning that no team is completely used to or prepared for what Diana does. If one of the really talented teams has practiced a lot of Diana she's gonna see a lot of picks and bans this week.
I think that Anivia roams fine so long as you know what you're doing. You insta-clear waves. You just shove mid and go roam. You're not gonna get caught by the opposing AP mid unless they cede CS (and then you know they're coming and they're too far behind you to catch you in most cases). You shouldn't be caught by the enemy jungler unless you have no wards.
Karthus never leaves mid because he can just press R to gank a lane.
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EPT
