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How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs!
On September 19 2012 02:39 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:25 wei2coolman wrote:On September 19 2012 02:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:
I think it's probably best if they gave Syndra the Yorick and Riven treatment, just so we can see her played more, even if it's an over buff. Riot updates the game enough that even if she becomes overbuffed, targeted nerfs can happen almost immediately. I swear to god I'm not trying to disagree with you on every single post, but wasn't Yorick crap on release and then got buffed and Riven was really really good, then got hotfixed because some things were just bugging out and afterwards just adjusted? I recall they buffed Q and nerfed W, also reduced her health regen because it was stupidly high. Maybe I'm confusing some stuff here. I'm just saying it's faster to balance syndra by overbuffing, then nerfing. Then it is to buff slowly. Riven and Yorick in a pretty balanced state right now imo, and Riven got to balanced state fairly quickly. 1 major buffs, then like 2 nerfs/changes, got her to the state she's in now, I believe. Yorick was like 1 major buff and 3 nerfs, I think? And the yorick is probably best example, similar to syndra, bad champ on release. just need overbuffs so players can explore champion kits without getting punished too hard for it. Then targeted nerfs at parts of the kit that are being exploited too hard. Overbuff Syndya, Syndra Permaban sees 0 play. Great idea.
Zyra isn't permabanned status, and I think we all agree she's super fucking strong.
Neither was rumble after change.
Neither was riven, neither was yorick.
There are plenty of "op'd" champs that reach permaban status, even though they are really strong.
Overbuffed syndra would have to be on par with Shen/Alistar/Malphite levels of utility to see permaban status. Riot would have to overbuff her by a SIGNIFICANT margin for that to even occur.
Also, overbuff takes time for players to turn into permaban status. Overbuff means the kit has more potential, doesn't necessarily mean players will play it to that potential. I think we all agree Anivia's kit is ridiculously strong, but Riot hasn't really touched it because only one player in the world plays her to her full potential (forggen). Meaning, people have to get good at her before she becomes permaban status. Otherwise it's unwarranted to permabann syndra in ranked queues.
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On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs!
I think they should remove her manacosts to make her more in line with riven/garen/kat etc.
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On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs!
That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse.
Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast....
On September 19 2012 02:43 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! I think they should remove her manacosts to make her more in line with riven/garen/kat etc.
Hahaha.
On a serious and related note, during PAX Prime Morello said something along the line that there won't be any ranged manaless champions (similar to Kennen) in the future
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On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast....
Buy Frozen Heart, 2 archangel staffs, DC, Voidstaff, Roa. Never need boots. 1shot carries all day.
To be honest that's a gross exaggeration of what I meant.
There's one problem that everyone is addressing, and its the "mana costs" of her Q.
2 routes to take to solve this.
Make Q worth casting for that mana cost.
or to lower its mana cost.
I'm tired of seeing practically manaless champs being released. Much rather see mana heavy champ users that are rewarded for using high mana cost spells.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 19 2012 02:30 wei2coolman wrote:
Or we could leave Syndra in the pre-change eve/kat tier, fine with me too. I'll just stick with my Ahri/Morg/TF. One less matchup I have to learn. lol.
Plus an over buffed syndra can't be as good as current Zyra, could it?
As if you can call her that worthless a week after release.
At-release evaluations of champions are generally pretty worthless. The time-frame in which after which general opinion starts to be more accurate is on the order of 2 months, though easier-to-play and OP champions sometimes get figured out faster.
I would rather discourage Riot's erratic patching habits rather than encourage them.
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On September 19 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast.... Buy Frozen Heart and 4 Tears of Godesses. Would be best character in the game.
Right. Then you can cast maybe 3 Qs in a teamfight. What if you missed 2?
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On September 19 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast.... Buy Frozen Heart and 4 Tears of Godesses. Would be best character in the game. Right. Then you can cast maybe 3 Qs in a teamfight. What if you missed 2?
Then you should go play Ryze.
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On September 19 2012 01:46 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 17:37 sob3k wrote:
People saying Syndra has no utility are just wrong...she has a 2 second 45% slow (which is actually a pretty solid slow), and the potential to stun multiple enemies at massive range.
Her greatest strength though is that she can cast QW while moving, which gives her alot different gameplay than alot of other mids...alot of people dont even seem to realize you can cast them on the move.
I have been winning tons of lanes and carrying with her, but I do agree she could use a little bit of a buff, she's just not nearly as bad as many people say. I win but i feel like I could have carried harder with more standard mid picks.
For buffs I would suggest a mix and match of :
-either a range or a projectile speed increase on the W
-Buff sphere duration, allow you to have more spheres out would make getting stuns much easier and contribute to smart setting up, ult might have to be adjusted
-E CD reduction, would help her utility a ton and help her to get the fuck away from people running her down
-Ult range increase, its just oddly small right now and doesn't synergize with her kit very well, you end up using it on whoever is close enough to safely hit many times. Or maybe give it a little bit of knockback.
just a pinch or two of one or two of these ideas would make her totally solid powerwise. That's a HUGE list of buffs. I think she will be fine (if not OP) if her Q's mana cost is lowered by 10 across all ranks.
I said a pinch or two of these ideas...as in not all of them by any means.
I dont think mana is really that big a deal, if they want her to be an anivia type manahog thats ok, and you can still spam for a long time after you get chalice. I just feel her kit is straight up weaker than other AP's. I've come out of mid like 8-1, 6-0,5-0, and I can't carry and be a god like I could if I was playing gragas or kassadin or LB or Viktor or Ryze or Orianna or Cass. She feels like Lux in soloque, you can do well but you just won't be nearly as strong as other champs.
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On September 19 2012 02:47 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast.... Buy Frozen Heart and 4 Tears of Godesses. Would be best character in the game. Right. Then you can cast maybe 3 Qs in a teamfight. What if you missed 2? Then you should go play Ryze.
That's the problem tho,whats the point of these skill shot ap's if they are worse than ryze and vlad even when they hit everything,which is pretty much impossible.
Ofc you play what's fun for you but from a competitive standpoint its like,a pretty bad design logic.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 19 2012 02:25 wei2coolman wrote:
I'm just saying it's faster to balance syndra by overbuffing, then nerfing. Then it is to buff slowly. Riven and Yorick in a pretty balanced state right now imo, and Riven got to balanced state fairly quickly. 1 major buffs, then like 2 nerfs/changes, got her to the state she's in now, I believe. Yorick was like 1 major buff and 3 nerfs, I think?
Riven is fine now because release Riven was actually ok. The hotfix actually threw her more out of whack, and the nerf after that was basically bringing back into line what was actually a balanced champion at release.
And no, I disagree about trying to get Syndra balanced quickly. The most important thing for the development of the competitive game is stability. It's much healthier for her to be underplayed for 6 months while people figure her out, than for her to be overbuffed and be wildly OP for a month, then nerfed back into line.
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On September 19 2012 02:47 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 01:46 Sufficiency wrote:On September 18 2012 17:37 sob3k wrote:
People saying Syndra has no utility are just wrong...she has a 2 second 45% slow (which is actually a pretty solid slow), and the potential to stun multiple enemies at massive range.
Her greatest strength though is that she can cast QW while moving, which gives her alot different gameplay than alot of other mids...alot of people dont even seem to realize you can cast them on the move.
I have been winning tons of lanes and carrying with her, but I do agree she could use a little bit of a buff, she's just not nearly as bad as many people say. I win but i feel like I could have carried harder with more standard mid picks.
For buffs I would suggest a mix and match of :
-either a range or a projectile speed increase on the W
-Buff sphere duration, allow you to have more spheres out would make getting stuns much easier and contribute to smart setting up, ult might have to be adjusted
-E CD reduction, would help her utility a ton and help her to get the fuck away from people running her down
-Ult range increase, its just oddly small right now and doesn't synergize with her kit very well, you end up using it on whoever is close enough to safely hit many times. Or maybe give it a little bit of knockback.
just a pinch or two of one or two of these ideas would make her totally solid powerwise. That's a HUGE list of buffs. I think she will be fine (if not OP) if her Q's mana cost is lowered by 10 across all ranks. I said a pinch or two of these ideas...as in not all of them by any means. I dont think mana is really that big a deal, if they want her to be an anivia type manahog thats ok, and you can still spam for a long time after you get chalice. I just feel her kit is straight up weaker than other AP's. I've come out of mid like 8-1, 6-0,5-0, and I can't carry and be a god like I could if I was playing gragas or kassadin or LB or Viktor or Ryze or Orianna or Cass. She feels like Lux in soloque, you can do well but you just won't be nearly as strong as other champs.
Mana is a huge deal. When you play a champion that requires a lot of mana, you are forced to invest in mana items instead of damage items. That's a lot of money which you could have spent on getting more damage instead.
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On September 19 2012 02:50 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:47 Zdrastochye wrote:On September 19 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast.... Buy Frozen Heart and 4 Tears of Godesses. Would be best character in the game. Right. Then you can cast maybe 3 Qs in a teamfight. What if you missed 2? Then you should go play Ryze. That's the problem tho,whats the point of these skill shot ap's if they are worse than ryze and vlad even when they hit everything,which is pretty much impossible. Ofc you play what's fun for you but from a competitive standpoint its like,a pretty bad design logic.
because for example ryze sucks dick early mid game and can't really roam effectively (no mobility)
i know what you're aiming for but there are reasons why gragas is literally played/banned almost every single game and ryze hasn't really been popular lately
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On September 19 2012 02:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:23 Shiv. wrote:On September 19 2012 02:15 wei2coolman wrote:
I think it's probably best if they gave Syndra the Yorick and Riven treatment, just so we can see her played more, even if it's an over buff. Riot updates the game enough that even if she becomes overbuffed, targeted nerfs can happen almost immediately. I swear to god I'm not trying to disagree with you on every single post, but wasn't Yorick crap on release and then got buffed and Riven was really really good, then got hotfixed because some things were just bugging out and afterwards just adjusted? I recall they buffed Q and nerfed W, also reduced her health regen because it was stupidly high. Maybe I'm confusing some stuff here. I'm just saying it's faster to balance syndra by overbuffing, then nerfing. Then it is to buff slowly. Riven and Yorick in a pretty balanced state right now imo, and Riven got to balanced state fairly quickly. 1 major buffs, then like 2 nerfs/changes, got her to the state she's in now, I believe. Yorick was like 1 major buff and 3 nerfs, I think? And the yorick is probably best example, similar to syndra, bad champ on release. just need overbuffs so players can explore champion kits without getting punished too hard for it. Then targeted nerfs at parts of the kit that are being exploited too hard.
I actually genuinely wonder whether or not yorick was bad on release. His mana costs were slightly prohibitive, but that's actually a good thing, due to the way his passive works. With yorick's kit, he gets enormous boosts in strength in many aspects the more ghouls he has out on the field. Uta called well in advance that if yorick got any mana buffs, then he would be problematic.
also, yorick only got 1 and a half nerfs, one where his passive no longer reduces true dmg, and one semi-nerf where the lifesteal ghoul only eats 50% of non champ HP, which is not even really a nerf, since it homes in on champs pretty much regardless of who you originally cast it on.
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On September 19 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:47 sob3k wrote:On September 19 2012 01:46 Sufficiency wrote:On September 18 2012 17:37 sob3k wrote:
People saying Syndra has no utility are just wrong...she has a 2 second 45% slow (which is actually a pretty solid slow), and the potential to stun multiple enemies at massive range.
Her greatest strength though is that she can cast QW while moving, which gives her alot different gameplay than alot of other mids...alot of people dont even seem to realize you can cast them on the move.
I have been winning tons of lanes and carrying with her, but I do agree she could use a little bit of a buff, she's just not nearly as bad as many people say. I win but i feel like I could have carried harder with more standard mid picks.
For buffs I would suggest a mix and match of :
-either a range or a projectile speed increase on the W
-Buff sphere duration, allow you to have more spheres out would make getting stuns much easier and contribute to smart setting up, ult might have to be adjusted
-E CD reduction, would help her utility a ton and help her to get the fuck away from people running her down
-Ult range increase, its just oddly small right now and doesn't synergize with her kit very well, you end up using it on whoever is close enough to safely hit many times. Or maybe give it a little bit of knockback.
just a pinch or two of one or two of these ideas would make her totally solid powerwise. That's a HUGE list of buffs. I think she will be fine (if not OP) if her Q's mana cost is lowered by 10 across all ranks. I said a pinch or two of these ideas...as in not all of them by any means. I dont think mana is really that big a deal, if they want her to be an anivia type manahog thats ok, and you can still spam for a long time after you get chalice. I just feel her kit is straight up weaker than other AP's. I've come out of mid like 8-1, 6-0,5-0, and I can't carry and be a god like I could if I was playing gragas or kassadin or LB or Viktor or Ryze or Orianna or Cass. She feels like Lux in soloque, you can do well but you just won't be nearly as strong as other champs. Mana is a huge deal. When you play a champion that requires a lot of mana, you are forced to invest in mana items instead of damage items. That's a lot of money which you could have spent on getting more damage instead.
I build chalice on a ton of mids and feel stronger than syndra, and thats all the mana I buy on her
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On September 19 2012 02:54 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 02:50 TheKefka wrote:On September 19 2012 02:47 Zdrastochye wrote:On September 19 2012 02:46 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On September 19 2012 02:43 Sufficiency wrote:On September 19 2012 02:39 wei2coolman wrote:
How about thinking about it this way? maybe she needs more damage to justify high mana costs! That would be awkward for two reasons. First of all, her utilities ( W + E) depend on her ability to cast Q, and her R does more damage the more she spams Q. So giving her more damage on her Q in exchange for higher mana cost will probably make her worse. Also, the high mana cost forces you to play more conservatively and back more often to recharge your mana. Imagine if her Q does 2200 damage + 5*AP and costs 900 mana per cast.... Buy Frozen Heart and 4 Tears of Godesses. Would be best character in the game. Right. Then you can cast maybe 3 Qs in a teamfight. What if you missed 2? Then you should go play Ryze. That's the problem tho,whats the point of these skill shot ap's if they are worse than ryze and vlad even when they hit everything,which is pretty much impossible. Ofc you play what's fun for you but from a competitive standpoint its like,a pretty bad design logic. because for example ryze sucks dick early mid game and can't really roam effectively (no mobility) i know what you're aiming for but there are reasons why gragas is literally played/banned almost every single game and ryze hasn't really been popular lately
Ryze hasn't been popular lately because he can't clear fast from a safe range and doesn't have as much utility as a orianna and gragass who have 2 of the best ults in game right now probably.
Why doesn't stuff like brand get more love,he could use a small buff to just make him viable for competitive play,it's like zyra is a better version of brand,just more boring to play.
Same as with ziggs,he could potentially be the best mid for a poke comp with so much zone control(and imo he doesn't even need a buff),but what's the point when gragass has the best ult in the game that's not even hard to land well lol.
As she is right now no one is going to use syndra as well for the same reasons,there are just better options that require less effort but do more.
Idk maybe I'm just but hurt that champions that I like get practically no play time.
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Yorick pre-buff was atrociously hard to play. He really did need the buff. Riven buffs were unnecessary. She was perfectly balanced on release, maybe just needed that bug fix. But I'm glad they did buff her though, it accelerated the growth of how Riven was suppose to be played out, meaning people discovered her full potential early on.
Can't really compare imo. each champ has their own niche. Some of their niches are smaller than others, so there is less chance of seeing them played, but that's not to say these champs are "weaker" by any means.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 19 2012 03:10 wei2coolman wrote:
Yorick pre-buff was atrociously hard to play. He really did need the buff. Riven buffs were unnecessary. She was perfectly balanced on release, maybe just needed that bug fix. But I'm glad they did buff her though, it accelerated the growth of how Riven was suppose to be played out, meaning people discovered her full potential early on.
What?
Navi was playing what's for all intents and purposes identical to the "standard" current Riven build like a week after she came out. The popularity of that build propagating was more or less irrelevant to her buff, because it was already catching on among other high Elo players before the buff (I saw Westrice playing a similar build on stream before she was buffed).
The buff just rocked the boat for no real reason. The vast majority of what needed to be figured out to recognize Riven's strength was already on the table before the hotfix happened.
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On September 19 2012 03:15 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 03:10 wei2coolman wrote:
Yorick pre-buff was atrociously hard to play. He really did need the buff. Riven buffs were unnecessary. She was perfectly balanced on release, maybe just needed that bug fix. But I'm glad they did buff her though, it accelerated the growth of how Riven was suppose to be played out, meaning people discovered her full potential early on. What? Navi was playing what's for all intents and purposes identical to the "standard" current Riven build like a week after she came out. The popularity of that build propagating was more or less irrelevant to her buff, because it was already catching on among other high Elo players before the buff (I saw Westrice playing a similar build on stream before she was buffed). The buff just rocked the boat for no real reason. The vast majority of what needed to be figured out to recognize Riven's strength was already on the table before the hotfix happened.
I don't remember anyone doing the BT stacking until 2 weeks after hotfix, and it didn't become ridiculously popular until the Riven FotM (which happened after Nasus FotM, cause Riven straight up countered Nasus top).
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Why do people always show when they see the other teams jungler in the bush? Like when the lane bush is warded. Let their jungler waste time? NO! better skillshot him so he knows we know.
And it's not uncommon, it literally happens every single game.
I guess it's just the normal egoistic play.
Might fit into the QQ but it's actually more like a observation I made than a rant.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 19 2012 03:18 Keniji wrote:
Why do people always show when they see the other teams jungler in the bush? Like when the lane bush is warded. Let their jungler waste time? NO! better skillshot him so he knows we know.
And it's not uncommon, it literally happens every single game.
I guess it's just the normal egoistic play.
Might fit into the QQ but it's actually more like a observation I made than a rant.
Because the normal jungler response is to leave. Even if you know you're being camped, you can't CS safely until the jungler leaves, so if you poke him into leaving, you can start CSing again.
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EPT
