EPT[Patch 1.0.0.147: Syndra] General Discussion - Page 115
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2012 08:52 Gorsameth wrote: Shows you adding random ratios because you can is a bad way to design a champion. I don't know why you would consider it a bad thing when your community innovates and comes up with a fresh and interesting way to play the champion. It shows that they're thinking and interacting with your game. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:00 TheYango wrote: I don't know why you would consider it a bad thing when your community innovates and comes up with a fresh and interesting way to play the champion. It shows that they're thinking and interacting with your game. But the Rengar W ratio WAS randomly inserted. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2012 08:41 Seuss wrote: There are separate debates to be had about slowing down Riot's pace as a whole or the accuracy of Riot's nerfs/buffs (e.g. Ezreal's "nerf"), but Riot is definitely far better about letting a champion sit a while than they were in the past. The thing I am most curious about Riot's buffing/nerfing mentality (and if Moonbear is around maybe he can answer) is why is Riot so averse to doing reverts of changes that they know were unnecessary and overkill? For example, why was the mana cost reduction on Ezreal's W not reverted? It was known that W-max Ezreal was good before that patch (Doublelift and the Chinese teams were already using it then, it just didn't become FotM until after the patch), and that the buff was pretty much unnecessary. Why did riot not simply start with a straight revert of that change, rather than trying to find some other convoluted way to nerf Ezreal? | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:08 TheYango wrote: The thing I am most curious about Riot's buffing/nerfing mentality (and if Moonbear is around maybe he can answer) is why is Riot so averse to doing reverts of changes that they know were unnecessary and overkill? For example, why was the mana cost reduction on Ezreal's W not reverted? It was known that W-max Ezreal was good before that patch (Doublelift and the Chinese teams were already using it then, it just didn't become FotM until after the patch), and that the buff was pretty much unnecessary. Why did riot not simply start with a straight revert of that change, rather than trying to find some other convoluted way to nerf Ezreal? Maybe they don't want to admit to their mistakes? It seems they rarely go "oh shit we fucked up" like they had done with Zyra. Not sure. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On September 20 2012 08:55 overt wrote: I disagree. I don't think AD Rengar was as awful as some people said pre-buff and now he's even better while AP Rengar is worse. I think the ability to choose whether you build a champion as AD or AP is interesting and if anything Riot should encourage it more imo. lol ad rengar was fine, you should have watched dyrius stream yestarday he whined alot how people are clueless about rengar (ap and ad) and that the buffs by riot are retarded, im pretty sure we will see him perm banned (he already is at euw 2.2k+) on all elos and nerfed soon | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
On September 20 2012 08:55 overt wrote: I disagree. I don't think AD Rengar was as awful as some people said pre-buff and now he's even better while AP Rengar is worse. I think the ability to choose whether you build a champion as AD or AP is interesting and if anything Riot should encourage it more imo. Interesting? Maybe. Good for balance? Never. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:16 ManyCookies wrote: ...explain, how is having two build paths related to balance? Because the power level of either build is affected by the baseline power of his skills. Its very hard to balance the kit such that both builds are reasonable, and very easy for one build to be too strong or the other too weak. That said, I hope Riot decides to encourage the new way to play the hero that the community discovered, rather than just killing it because it wasn't their idea (they were OK with AP Gragas before when they intended for him to be a tank, so I should hope that they are fine with AP Rengar). | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:08 TheYango wrote: The thing I am most curious about Riot's buffing/nerfing mentality (and if Moonbear is around maybe he can answer) is why is Riot so averse to doing reverts of changes that they know were unnecessary and overkill? For example, why was the mana cost reduction on Ezreal's W not reverted? It was known that W-max Ezreal was good before that patch (Doublelift and the Chinese teams were already using it then, it just didn't become FotM until after the patch), and that the buff was pretty much unnecessary. Why did riot not simply start with a straight revert of that change, rather than trying to find some other convoluted way to nerf Ezreal? Wait, wasn't Ezreal's W max only good after the mana cost reduction? I remember reading an article about it, and then soon after everyone playing Ez was W maxing. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:23 Dark_Chill wrote: Wait, wasn't Ezreal's W max only good after the mana cost reduction? I remember reading an article about it, and then soon after everyone playing Ez was W maxing. It was good before. Chinese teams were doing it before, Doublelift already learned it from them before and was using it before. It only became FotM after because NA players don't interact that much with the Asian scene, so it had to wait for DL to bring it back to an NA tournament before everyone saw how strong it was. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
On September 20 2012 08:52 Gorsameth wrote: Shows you adding random ratios because you can is a bad way to design a champion. Two wrongs dont make a right | ||
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Ziken
Ghana1743 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:16 ManyCookies wrote: ...explain, how is having two build paths related to balance? old champs having AP ratios was not a bad thing, because older champs weren't built with a very specific niche/purpose in mind. it was nice that sion/trist/master yi/gragas had different build paths, because they don't all have 4 skills specifically tailored to a certain playstyle. they all have defensive skills and offensive skills. back in the day, riot didn't have a real sense of direction with their champ designs. they just cobbled some cool abilities together and made a champ. it really shows with gragas, whose kit really has basically no cohesion (but is still really cool! don't get me wrong!). they made a great champ with multiple build paths there BECAUSE they didn't intend for him to have any certain role. well they kinda wanted him as a tank, but not like, set in stone. but now, with champs being released with very specific skillsets and strengths (you do not look at rengar and say, 'hey i think this guy could be a good tank. let's throw aegis FH FoN on this bitch and call it a day.' it's quite obvious he's an assasin. just like it's obvious that riven is a mobile fighter, not a tank. or that leona IS a tank/y support, not an ap carry), riot has very specific roles for them. so when they throw in a stray additive (like dianna's incredibly tanky base stats, or rengar's W AP ratio), they create counterintuitive gameplay/counterplay based on what the champ is INTENDED to do. dianna should not be able to deal AP-burst levels of damage and live longer than your frontline. nor should rengar be able to do whatever people complain he can do (still havent seen a rengar in game x_x). it creates abuse cases because of the specific way that riot designs champs now i'm not really sure where champs turned around from cool abilities to set designs. i would say vlad/xin were still just examples of cool abilities without inherently directed design. leblanc was definitely a design, but irelia is pretty clearly just cobbled-together skills that worked (a little too well?). i think yorick was the last really poorly-designed champ, and leona marks the start of champs that have an idea behind them, rather than just snippets from here and there | ||
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qanik
Denmark1899 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:20 TheYango wrote: Because the power level of either build is affected by the baseline power of his skills. Its very hard to balance the kit such that both builds are reasonable, and very easy for one build to be too strong or the other too weak. That said, I hope Riot decides to encourage the new way to play the hero that the community discovered, rather than just killing it because it wasn't their idea (they were OK with AP Gragas before when they intended for him to be a tank, so I should hope that they are fine with AP Rengar). I think the fact that they only nerfed W's ratio to 0.8 shows they aren't completely averse to the AP build. I would have expected them to drop it as low as 0.5 if they were. | ||
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little fancy
Germany2504 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:29 Ziken wrote: Wow, CLG is absolutely destroying TD in MLG prizefights. Not even funny. wp by hotshot. I think it is a stupid idea to let them play again after TD already got crushed two days ago at playhem or what it was called. I mean, it's pretty boring to watch although it gives new players an idea on how to press an 'early advantage' (game won at 6 minutes counts, too  ). | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:00 TheYango wrote: I don't know why you would consider it a bad thing when your community innovates and comes up with a fresh and interesting way to play the champion. It shows that they're thinking and interacting with your game. I agree with you but that doesnt change that fact that they literately spammed a random number on there as an AP ratio. The designer said that very thing in an interview and tbh that is wrong. regardless of how it happened to have "saved" the champion in this case. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 20 2012 09:36 Gorsameth wrote: I agree with you but that doesnt change that fact that they literately spammed a random number on there as an AP ratio. The designer said that very thing in an interview and tbh that is wrong. regardless of how it happened to have "saved" the champion in this case. I don't get how it's wrong to get lucky and happen to make an interesting design choice without intending to. God knows an overwhelming amount of what made BW great was random arbitrary design choices. On September 20 2012 09:30 gtrsrs wrote: i'm not really sure where champs turned around from cool abilities to set designs. i would say vlad/xin were still just examples of cool abilities without inherently directed design. leblanc was definitely a design, but irelia is pretty clearly just cobbled-together skills that worked (a little too well?). i think yorick was the last really poorly-designed champ, and leona marks the start of champs that have an idea behind them, rather than just snippets from here and there It's like I said, everything started to go downhill after Yorick came out. It's all his fault. Yorick's ruining the game. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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