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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2012 08:43 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 08:36 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2012 08:33 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Cheap and easy MRes mid-lane is bad because it means burst casters feel even worse about their existence while sustained damage casters laugh and feel good about running MRes and farm all day. Except it's a two-sided coin, because as a flat MPen item, it fits the power curve of burst casters with high base damages better than sustained casters (that typically have a power curve aimed at later points in the game--where flat MPen is a less effective stat). The problem though is that when everyone feels like getting Abyssal because it's so cost-efficient and useful, overall its worse off for the burst casters because the MRes gain is greater than the MRes reduction aura. The range reduction should still mean most burst casters can get the effect of the aura but it's not an immediate "must buy" item on everyone. Although I think 600 range might be a bit low. 650 would have been nicer.
Then nerf the price or hit the stats, don't neuter the aura.
And IMO 600 range is too low. The "standard" range for most ranged casters is baselined around 625 (Annie's Q and W are both 625 range). Forcing casters to play at shorter range than that is not really feasible, especially given how Annie's ranges at 625 are already considered low enough to be a hindrance for her.
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Whatever,my original point was that just 3 champion are getting shafted overall because of this nerf,while everyone else is just going to continue building it.If you are denying me an item than at least make something else which I can buy and don't just deny me options.
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On August 30 2012 08:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 08:43 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 30 2012 08:36 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2012 08:33 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Cheap and easy MRes mid-lane is bad because it means burst casters feel even worse about their existence while sustained damage casters laugh and feel good about running MRes and farm all day. Except it's a two-sided coin, because as a flat MPen item, it fits the power curve of burst casters with high base damages better than sustained casters (that typically have a power curve aimed at later points in the game--where flat MPen is a less effective stat). The problem though is that when everyone feels like getting Abyssal because it's so cost-efficient and useful, overall its worse off for the burst casters because the MRes gain is greater than the MRes reduction aura. The range reduction should still mean most burst casters can get the effect of the aura but it's not an immediate "must buy" item on everyone. Although I think 600 range might be a bit low. 650 would have been nicer. Then nerf the price or hit the stats, don't neuter the aura. And IMO 600 range is too low. The "standard" range for most ranged casters is baselined around 625 (Annie's Q and W are both 625 range, Ignite and Exhaust are both 625 range). Forcing casters to play at shorter range than that is not really feasible.
Agreed that the 600 range is too low. As I said, 650 would feel right since it's larger than the 625 range on casters like Annie and Ignite range.
Personally I feel like this is a missed opportunity where they could have retweaked Abyssal to be a burst caster item. Something like low stats and a stronger aura. Maybe it might be too good for Rumble? In any case, I think FeralPony(?) misplayed this one. Meh.
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United States47024 Posts
Personally I think this is another case where Riot jumped the gun on a nerf--where they know something is a problem, but didn't give it enough time to develop for them to figure out the most practical way of hitting the item the way they want.
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The 600 range is INTENDED to make it that casters can't use it well. They said it was intended for melee champs like say amumu and diana and to a lesser extent rumble who HAVE to be tanky to be able to keep up in damage, they're not happy with ranged champs getting so much tankiness for free for whatever reason, that's why it's 600 range. I don't know what the argument is about, they did it SO casters would have to get something else or fight at a shorter range.
Item nerfs aren't too huge a deal. If someones getting an item too much (we're seeing lots of abyssal nobody gets RoA or Rylais or even stuff like deathcap is getting rarer) it can be toned down. If they overdid it well so what I don't think anybodys going to be crying about APs having it rough. It probably scaled way too well with the new DFG which people are also getting every game, but I'm not sure on the range of DFG considering the cast time you can cast it and dash away on champs like ahri.
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The problem is that now you've got all these people completely unaffected by its aura which tremendously kills its value, even on many of the melee champions who got it originally.
Another case of burning down the forest to get at one tree.
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The problem is people buying it EVERY game because of how absurdly good it is WITHOUT the aura hitting other champs and being a team item and it was being bought more than even items like Aegis I'd say, and most people who buy aegis only buy it to help their team, most people who buy abyssal buy it because it's great for 1v1ing and is still great in teamfights.
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I don't think Abyssal is strong due to the aura in teamfight. Abyssal is strong because it is probably the most cost-effective way to make you able to clear minion waves, since the aura affects minions. Then there is the MR crap.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2012 08:58 Slayer91 wrote:
The problem is people buying it EVERY game because of how absurdly good it is WITHOUT the aura hitting other champs and being a team item and it was being bought more than even items like Aegis I'd say, and most people who buy aegis only buy it to help their team, most people who buy abyssal buy it because it's great for 1v1ing and is still great in teamfights.
I'm not disagreeing with their being a problem.
I disagree that this was the smoothest solution to the problem. And I disagree that the problem was severe enough to warrant such a big nerf so fast rather than observing a month or more further to see how the community handles it, and fine tuning a solution that doesn't totally gut the item.
And bear in mind that even on tanky magic damage dealers, such a drastic nerf to the range is going to hurt the items usefulness a lot. For example, if you're Maokai or Naut, peeling for your AD carry, there's a good chance that the aura's range isn't stretching far enough for the rest of your team to make use of it on targets other than the guy diving your AD.
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That's a lot of nerfs.
I think alistar's usefulness is overrated. He has almost no damage so everything useful about him is his crowd control and his ult. The only times I see alistars carry team fights is when the other team focuses them with their 50->70% damage reduction ult up, or when the enemy team is bunched up so he uses a Q and knocks them all up, allowing his team to follow up. There's no reason to nerf him. With the introduction of jayce, he's not even the only champ capable of using a knockback and jungling well. He gets a lot of damage on his ult, but I never think of alistars as scary damage dealers. Of course I don't play at a level where alistars are running through towers to gank. It's weird how some champs are always banned at high elo and never banned low.
Req asked what to do if you were feeding. Well when I'm winning lane, I hate it when people try to stay just in exp range. Every time I go to shoo them off exp range they just walk away and I miss last hits. And I can't attack them to get more fed and up my kda. Exp range is really big. Riot is too nice to people losing lanes. Learn how long it is and abuse it.
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On August 30 2012 09:04 obesechicken13 wrote:
That's a lot of nerfs.
I think alistar's usefulness is overrated. He has almost no damage so everything useful about him is his crowd control and his ult. The only times I see alistars carry team fights is when the other team focuses them with their 50->70% damage reduction ult up, or when the enemy team is bunched up so he uses a Q and knocks them all up, allowing his team to follow up. There's no reason to nerf him. With the introduction of jayce, he's not even the only champ capable of using a knockback and jungling well. He gets a lot of damage on his ult, but I never think of alistars as scary damage dealers. Of course I don't play at a level where alistars are running through towers to gank. It's weird how some champs are always banned at high elo and never banned low.
Req asked what to do if you were feeding. Well when I'm winning lane, I hate it when people try to stay just in exp range. Every time I go to shoo them off exp range they just walk away and I miss last hits. And I can't attack them to get more fed and up my kda. Exp range is really big. Riot is too nice to people losing lanes. Learn how long it is and abuse it.
It's not about Ali being a damage dealer. It's about him being absolutely fucking terrifying as a jungler (bottom laner?) His utility in ganks is almost completely unparalleled, so nerfing his range a little bit hurts his ganks but not the overall utility very much. Not entirely sure it's needed, but then again I haven't seen an Alistar in a game for a month anyway, so meh.
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Good jungle Alistars make it their job to always be flanking and coming at unexpected angles. Despite how easy it is to gank with Alistar, there's still a pretty large difference in game presence between a good at bad one.
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On August 30 2012 09:08 Craton wrote:
Good jungle Alistars make it their job to always be flanking and coming at unexpected angles. Despite how easy it is to gank with Alistar, there's still a pretty large difference in game presence between a good at bad one.
There is nothing like playing mid against a jungle Alistar who knows what he's doing. As in, you almost automatically lose. There is the CONSTANT danger of getting ganked from any angle (with plenty of cc along with it), so you'll end up losing farm. If you're stuck at tower, he can just walk in from behind and boot you into the lane right in the face of your opponent.
It's altogether just not a fun experience.
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On August 30 2012 09:14 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 09:08 Craton wrote:
Good jungle Alistars make it their job to always be flanking and coming at unexpected angles. Despite how easy it is to gank with Alistar, there's still a pretty large difference in game presence between a good at bad one. There is nothing like playing mid against a jungle Alistar who knows what he's doing. As in, you almost automatically lose. There is the CONSTANT danger of getting ganked from any angle (with plenty of cc along with it), so you'll end up losing farm. If you're stuck at tower, he can just walk in from behind and boot you into the lane right in the face of your opponent. It's altogether just not a fun experience.
It's just silly that a champion can spend his time roaming around the map without farming too much and still be a force later on.As said before you can spend your time camping someone all day,especially at lvl 2.No one else can really do that without sacrificing their jungle presence and farm.The pressure you cause is retarded.
With alistar you need your 2 cdr items and that's it,your a fucking god when you pop that ult.You can zone their carry with headbut,make plays with your combo and if you hit a good pulv on a decent group of people it's game over.
Another thing is the jungle which can go to your lanes because you don't really need it often times.
The golems and red buff go to your top or bot lane,blue and wraiths go to mid all day.
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I love Ali, and I will say a few things about the nerfs and why I hate the series of nerfs, but think they do little to solve anything.
I hate the nerfs because they make his jungle even more binary, either Kills or really youve got nothing in the jungle, and coming out of the jungle you are not really any better off than a support ali would have been.
But, he sucks to face because of where his power peak is: Lvl2 (while lane is lvl 1). Wolves > Blue > Gank top = Kill if your lane has CC and you/you lane are good. Then Gank Mid at 2/2 and midlane prolly gets a kill, particularly with strong CC. There is no better time to get a gank than at lvl 1. You can push to deny CS then back and you come to lane with a huge advantage like boots/dorans/1 ward + pots vs. boots + pots.
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Corki/Graves/Ezreal - nerfs were expected but the ezreal buff alongside the nerfs means that ezreal didn't actually get hit that hard. His W has 2/3 the width it used to so that'll make dodging it less of a game of luck. The graves base AS nerf actually doesn't do anything looking at the numbers, 2% difference is pretty negligible. Corki actually got hit pretty hard by this, the nerf to his passive reduces his damage by a pretty hefty amount mid-lategame
Karthus - The MR shred only becomes as good as the old one at 100/133/166/200/233 MR, breakpoints which are really hard to meet. Since it no longer shreds armor I was kind of hoping for something like 10%/15%/20%/25%/30% or else it'll only be levelled for the slow since the %shred is pretty shitty at the moment, especially since the armor shred is gone. There's little incentive to max it second now, put as many points into it as necessary to be able to WQQQQ someone but grab more points in defile to farm wraiths/wolves better I guess.
Diana - They hit the damage on her Q and her hp5 which is nice but the mana cost on her Q is still pretty absurd for an AP mid. She'll probably still be on the strong side since the only thing truly weaker about her is her ability to 100-0 someone and then 10s later, 100-0 another person. She will still snowball pretty hard, around akali level now but her utility over akali means that she'll still be a top pick I think.
Morde - WTF? Did they change the hitbox as well? or was the model increase necessitated by a mismatch between his hitbox and model?
Abyssal - I guess I'll be building chalice more on champions that can make use of the mana. It'll still be alright on TF in a straight up fight as a followup to his gold card but his poke is a lot weaker. Champions like ahri will have to change how they teamfight in order to make use of the aura effectively but overall, it's not going to be that good of an item anymore. 1050 for 30 AP (~645 gold), 9 MR (~140 gold) and a less reliable aura is still going to be good on AP mids in harder matchups.
A nerf to the strong champions and some tweaks all round. Pretty good patch overall. Diana might get off of permabanned status so it'll be interesting to see how she fares.
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On August 30 2012 08:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2012 08:43 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 30 2012 08:36 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2012 08:33 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Cheap and easy MRes mid-lane is bad because it means burst casters feel even worse about their existence while sustained damage casters laugh and feel good about running MRes and farm all day. Except it's a two-sided coin, because as a flat MPen item, it fits the power curve of burst casters with high base damages better than sustained casters (that typically have a power curve aimed at later points in the game--where flat MPen is a less effective stat). The problem though is that when everyone feels like getting Abyssal because it's so cost-efficient and useful, overall its worse off for the burst casters because the MRes gain is greater than the MRes reduction aura. The range reduction should still mean most burst casters can get the effect of the aura but it's not an immediate "must buy" item on everyone. Although I think 600 range might be a bit low. 650 would have been nicer. Then nerf the price or hit the stats, don't neuter the aura. And IMO 600 range is too low. The "standard" range for most ranged casters is baselined around 625 (Annie's Q and W are both 625 range). Forcing casters to play at shorter range than that is not really feasible, especially given how Annie's ranges at 625 are already considered low enough to be a hindrance for her.
It isn't forcing casters to play at a shorter range. It was never meant to be a caster item. Casters keep their range and stop building abyssal, which is exactly the intended change.
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On August 30 2012 07:15 TheKefka wrote:
That's a pretty huge range nerf on abyssal huh.
I can tell you its more than half. Before anybody says something, I'm refering to the area it covers, not the radius.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright let me add my few cents on Alistar.
He is an amazing jungler. He is not the best in every possible scenario, but he has several very distincts strenghts:
1. He can camp lanes from earlier levels and more effectively than anyone else.
2. He needs less farm than anyone else to be able to perform his role.
This means that Alistar needs to either be banned or picked very early (either first pick blue team or on of the first picks purple team), because picking anyone who can be camped easily is a bad idea. Even then, he can do his job decently well, he is able to farm fast enough.
AND he can be a support if need be. Really, instaban or first pick, no other option. Kinda like the old Malphite.
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I think the issue with Alistar is really representative of the current jungle metagame. Alistar is a character that essentially doesnt need much money to be useful since he gains SO much from his skills. Nerfing his damage isn't gonna make much of a difference. The fact that Alistar can farm the jungle at all (even if it is somewhat shitty farming) makes him better than just a DotA-esque roaming support that ganks. To a lesser extent Nautilus, Maokai, and Malphite have this issue as well. They all have a big-time utility that most farmy junglers do not have, while they can still acceptably get farm.
Perhaps they should just take away the damage part of his passive so he is only really ganking in the end. Ali jungle would be like Blitzcrank or Leona jungle in that case. I'd prefer it that way, I think.
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EPT
