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On July 21 2012 20:39 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 18:23 Hyren wrote:
Obviously Saint's drunken-delivery is over the top but his message is pretty darn accurate. Yeah, I think he is pretty well 100% on the ball. He's not the most tactful guy, but he wants to win really really bad, and he has a damn good point. Realistically, he probably should have went to sleep and brought it up more tactfully in the morning without liquor clouding his system, but it isn't like he is saying things that are false. I think Curse shall rebound fairly well from this.
Unless they throw him a blanket party while he's sleeping.
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Christ, Elements is such a child.
I'm not sure how many of you have actually read through his tier list, but he says things like "i'm moving this champ here because people are saying it's good and I've seen a couple people do well with it". I feel like he just coasts along and doesn't think at all about anything.
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Do pros still use hp/5 quints?
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On July 21 2012 23:21 cascades wrote:
Do pros still use hp/5 quints?
On Kassadin they do.
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On July 21 2012 22:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Christ, Elements is such a child.
I'm not sure how many of you have actually read through his tier list, but he says things like "i'm moving this champ here because people are saying it's good and I've seen a couple people do well with it". I feel like he just coasts along and doesn't think at all about anything.
when you do such a thing like a tier list then you probably should let alot of other good players influence it. if 5 top players you respect say X champion is good and you are not sure yet from your very own perspective then it's pretty smart to give in until you know more.
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after last updates everytime i restart lol client my in-game mouse sensivity is set to default, i also noticed my mouse sensivity in windows also changes when i alt tab in game, its annoying and didnt happen before, i use windows xp, any ideas how to solve this issue?
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Apparently, neither Elementz nor Westrice can counter-pick their lanes/don't know the counter-picks? That hilarious.
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Well elementz only plays support for teams I doubt he ever does it in solo queue and westrice was an ad player for the longest time.
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This conversation has me more and more tempted to set up a site that runs a tier list pokemon style - no opinions, just using data of percentage picked/banned.
Since there's 100 champions right now, and in a typical draft pick game you have 16 picks or bans here's some arbitrary thresholds for the tiers. Obviously the numbers here need adjusting, but it gets the idea across.
Uber tier - 75%+ picked or banned - the "must pick-or-bans" (Currently stuff like Nautilus that you almost always see one side either pick it or ban it.)
OU Tier - 20-75% picked or banned - the chamipions you see often, but not all the time.
UU Tier - 5-20% picked or banned - rarely seen, but they come out of the woodwork every once in a rare while because of a specific player liking the champ or to fill a specific niche.
NU Tier - <5% picked or banned - almost never seen picked.
These tier cutoffs would need to be adjusted, but my general idea is to put together a database of competitive game info where you have pick/ban info for each game, so you can run a simple query to see what %P/B each champion has to organize a tier list like this.
I also wouldn't mind thinking of a way to weight the data so that bans or first picks mean something slightly different than last picks, but I'm not sure what kind of algorithm I'd use for that.
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On July 22 2012 00:43 sylverfyre wrote:
This conversation has me more and more tempted to set up a site that runs a tier list pokemon style - no opinions, just using data of percentage picked/banned.
Since there's 100 champions right now, and in a typical draft pick game you have 16 picks or bans here's some arbitrary thresholds for the tiers. Obviously the numbers here need adjusting, but it gets the idea across.
Uber tier - 75%+ picked or banned - the "must pick-or-bans" (Currently stuff like Nautilus that you almost always see one side either pick it or ban it.)
OU Tier - 20-75% picked or banned - the chamipions you see often, but not all the time.
UU Tier - 5-20% picked or banned - rarely seen, but they come out of the woodwork every once in a rare while because of a specific player liking the champ or to fill a specific niche.
NU Tier - <5% picked or banned - almost never seen picked.
These tier cutoffs would need to be adjusted, but my general idea is to put together a database of competitive game info where you have pick/ban info for each game, so you can run a simple query to see what %P/B each champion has to organize a tier list like this.
I also wouldn't mind thinking of a way to weight the data so that bans or first picks mean something slightly different than last picks, but I'm not sure what kind of algorithm I'd use for that.
That's a pretty good idea, but you'd probably need to weigh in winrates, as well. Sometimes champs may be picked/banned simply because a particular player is really really good with that champ.
We should make a Teamliquid Champ Tier List.
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I agree. Have our own tier list.
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On July 22 2012 00:43 sylverfyre wrote:
This conversation has me more and more tempted to set up a site that runs a tier list pokemon style - no opinions, just using data of percentage picked/banned.
Since there's 100 champions right now, and in a typical draft pick game you have 16 picks or bans here's some arbitrary thresholds for the tiers. Obviously the numbers here need adjusting, but it gets the idea across.
Uber tier - 75%+ picked or banned - the "must pick-or-bans" (Currently stuff like Nautilus that you almost always see one side either pick it or ban it.)
OU Tier - 20-75% picked or banned - the chamipions you see often, but not all the time.
UU Tier - 5-20% picked or banned - rarely seen, but they come out of the woodwork every once in a rare while because of a specific player liking the champ or to fill a specific niche.
NU Tier - <5% picked or banned - almost never seen picked.
These tier cutoffs would need to be adjusted, but my general idea is to put together a database of competitive game info where you have pick/ban info for each game, so you can run a simple query to see what %P/B each champion has to organize a tier list like this.
I also wouldn't mind thinking of a way to weight the data so that bans or first picks mean something slightly different than last picks, but I'm not sure what kind of algorithm I'd use for that.
my issue with this kind of system being borrowed from the pokemon scene is that once a pokemon game is released there are no patches so the rates would stay relatively constant after a certain amount of time has passed
in LoL you would have to wipe the data every few months as champions are buffed or nerfed and phase in and out of popularity
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Popularity has little to do with champio strength
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Mantheon Tier- Mantheon
Whimpy Loser Tier- Everyone Else
Popularity has little to do with champio strength
Yes, yes it does.
Also, the winrates of non-top tier games isn't indicative of much because level of play is fluid and adjusts to winning; as you win more with an unbalanced champion at your level, your apparent skill level rises until you reach a point where your win rate with the champion is 50%. Hence, the win rate of primary champions will be around 50%, the elo of players will adjusting to sustain this equilbrium.
EDIT: The above only works when a player plays a small amount of champions. However, we can have the opposite effect; a player can have a very strong champion winrate at his elo, but remains at that elo due to his weaker champions' winrates. Hence that champion's win rate inflates.
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On July 22 2012 01:06 Bladeorade wrote:
I agree. Have our own tier list.
But instead of taking samples from tournaments we should count number of times bitched about in the shikyo thread.
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On July 22 2012 01:18 Hakanfrog wrote:But instead of taking samples from tournaments we should count number of times bitched about in the shikyo thread.
So Rumble = godtier.
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On July 22 2012 00:43 sylverfyre wrote:
This conversation has me more and more tempted to set up a site that runs a tier list pokemon style - no opinions, just using data of percentage picked/banned.
Since there's 100 champions right now, and in a typical draft pick game you have 16 picks or bans here's some arbitrary thresholds for the tiers. Obviously the numbers here need adjusting, but it gets the idea across.
Uber tier - 75%+ picked or banned - the "must pick-or-bans" (Currently stuff like Nautilus that you almost always see one side either pick it or ban it.)
OU Tier - 20-75% picked or banned - the chamipions you see often, but not all the time.
UU Tier - 5-20% picked or banned - rarely seen, but they come out of the woodwork every once in a rare while because of a specific player liking the champ or to fill a specific niche.
NU Tier - <5% picked or banned - almost never seen picked.
These tier cutoffs would need to be adjusted, but my general idea is to put together a database of competitive game info where you have pick/ban info for each game, so you can run a simple query to see what %P/B each champion has to organize a tier list like this.
I also wouldn't mind thinking of a way to weight the data so that bans or first picks mean something slightly different than last picks, but I'm not sure what kind of algorithm I'd use for that.
Yeahh Pokemon.
You could probably get the data from lolking.net or something. I don't know if you should value first picks differently from say 3rd or last picks. Bans would be weighted differently for sure tough.
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The pokemon tier list has the advantage of using things like base stats to help sort though, and it was still pretty subjective to a degree. Things like Wobbuffet, Palkia and Garchomp distort the meta so much that they literally become the meta. Smogon often ran tests to subjectively determine the borderline between Uber and OP. Such a method might not work for League of Legends, especially since the designers of the game can directly readjust balance whereas in Pokemon Nintendo doesn't really go back and chance base stats, move pools, etc outside of releasing a new product.
That being said however, I'm assuming you're suggesting a completely impartial method of data analytics. My guess is you want to take every single game played on LoL, filter it by Elo/game mode, win/loss, ban/picked percentages and then come to a conclusion that way. It's be difficult but not impossible. Iirc LoLKing has some data on ban/picks already. Perhaps that could be a starting point? You'd likely want some method to create a weighted average statistic that could be used for direction comparison in order to rank champions.
If you're interested, Riot already logs the details of everything players do and store the data in massive Data Warehouses which can be called upon by Design, Marketing, Balance, etc. Originally production slaves would ETL the necessary data to a MySQL instance and then export to Excel for reporting. Obviously this doesn't scale well when you have a playerbase larger than World of Warcraft spanning multiple servers. Their current system uses Adobe Hadoop as their framework. That lets them run far more efficient queries and ETL data from MySQL slaves. Reporting output is now done using Tableau as well. Of course, the data is private. That being said however...
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
God damn guys, I spent about an hour on that post and only about 6 responses? No wonder most posts in this thread are single sentences, sigh.
On July 21 2012 14:14 Navi wrote:
...nor strike me as particularly articulate...
Still more articulate than gtsrs :3
On July 21 2012 13:27 gtrsrs wrote:
...wording all my points in a more articulate way...
About comparing the ults, well, Hecarim's ultimate is very very slow, onw thing about dodging Skarner's ult with flash vs. dodging Hecarim's ultimate with flash is that Hec's ult is on cooldown now, a long chocolate bar one at that, but Skarner is still ready to do maximum gankage.
About comparing their initiation, well, flash-ult of Skarner IS an initiate and not an awful one at that, it simply depends on how fast can you blow up a guy, if you got like Veigar in your team it stays viable in the lategame too, Hecarim's ultimate is alright for initiating, but as gtsrs said it is very slow and dodgeable and Hecarim can't be as tanky AND do as much damage as Skarner due to cost-efficiency of CDR on Skarner and the presence of CDR on good items. Hec has to rely on W to survive, which with ignite and CC on the other team is shaky and that can lead to Hec just exploding way too fast and feeling bad for not picking Malphite instead.
As I said in my analysis, at the end of the day, you don't want either of them to be your main initiate.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jrtLCl.jpg)
