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On July 31 2012 01:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:36 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
what are everyone's thoughts on revive shen. yay or nay? Revive always feels like there are too many "if"s to making it work. - Your revive needs to be up (the CD is stupid long) - You need to have Ult or TP to get back into the fight (having no combat/escape summoners presents its own significant problems, both for laning and teamfighting if you take TP, and if you don't you can't use ult to split push because you need to have the ult to get back into the fight after dying). - You need to die early enough that there are still people worth ulting to after you Revive (teamfights need to be engaged in a way that you're the first to die--and there are a lot of teamcomps that simply don't allow you to be the first one to die.
To build on this, "if"s are really only good in solo queue. They're gimmicky. I've found that in solo queue, though, the gimmicky team can often win because people often don't know how to react or don't adapt their playstyle properly to counter the cheesey play.
So, could it work? Sure. Is it actually useful? Idk, you'd have to try it out and let us know =P
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On July 31 2012 01:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:
it just sounds like you dont know how shitty it is for a jungler to take your farm when youre already behind as a solo, if you were in my game id probably afk and swear at you all game.
Seriously, are you only picking out what you want to hear, or are you just trolling me?
If he was playing acceptably (oh no, I'm down kills and farm vs Akali, I should stay under turret, farm, and ask for ganks), there would have been no problem. But he wasn't. He consistently overextended at low health, even when mias were called, never warded, and couldn't pull off the combo. Giving him farm would not have made him a better player. I wasn't like, going to lane while he was trying to farm and taking it, I was taking it when I came in to gank, or when he went back or died, or was low and should have gone back anyway. I took his blue. These things allowed me to be super effective and win the game. That doesn't make me a bad person, that makes me competitive, and it payed off.
I can assure you that if you're in a game with me, you'll probably be better than I am and I'll invite you to take blue and probably wraiths and wolves as well, if I'm playing badly. There's no shame in letting someone who's doing well get more ahead.
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idk i feel like if revive was ever viable, shen would be the first person i'd want it on. will try
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On July 31 2012 01:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:41 TheYango wrote:On July 31 2012 01:36 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
what are everyone's thoughts on revive shen. yay or nay? Revive always feels like there are too many "if"s to making it work. - Your revive needs to be up (the CD is stupid long) - You need to have Ult or TP to get back into the fight (having no combat/escape summoners presents its own significant problems, both for laning and teamfighting if you take TP, and if you don't you can't use ult to split push because you need to have the ult to get back into the fight after dying). - You need to die early enough that there are still people worth ulting to after you Revive (teamfights need to be engaged in a way that you're the first to die--and there are a lot of teamcomps that simply don't allow you to be the first one to die. To build on this, "if"s are really only good in solo queue. They're gimmicky. I've found that in solo queue, though, the gimmicky team can often win because people often don't know how to react or don't adapt their playstyle properly to counter the cheesey play. So, could it work? Sure. Is it actually useful? Idk, you'd have to try it out and let us know =P
It might be better if Revive works similarly to Zilean's ult.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 31 2012 01:53 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
idk i feel like if revive was ever viable, shen would be the first person i'd want it on. will try
Realistically I'd say Pantheon is more likely to get good use out of it, simply because die->revive->ult is much more feasible for him. His kit is more capable of creating situations where they HAVE to kill him first.
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what you describe is someone who's playing bad, but if he's in the same game as you he's probably around the same skill level as you assuming he's trying to win. You gave the impression you were taking a solo's farm that he otherwise could've had to now only taking farm that he couldn't have gotten anyway. You have the mindest of me me me, like soniv except soniv is talking about mid, when as a jungler your job is to babysit the fuck out of a losing lane doing whatever it takes to help him back into the game.
as a jungler you will always be behind in gold and exp compared to solos, you can be ahead of your own solos but if that happens it means the other team's solos are fed. You scale worse than solos, you're probably a worse champion in team fights than solos, unless by magic, or if you're as good as shake and go 20-1 every game and become even stronger than the other team's solos, you will never be able to carry a game singlehandedly as jungler unless you use your advantage to feed your real carries who are supposed to carry.
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On July 31 2012 01:44 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:41 TheYango wrote:On July 31 2012 01:36 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
what are everyone's thoughts on revive shen. yay or nay? Revive always feels like there are too many "if"s to making it work. - Your revive needs to be up (the CD is stupid long) - You need to have Ult or TP to get back into the fight (having no combat/escape summoners presents its own significant problems, both for laning and teamfighting if you take TP, and if you don't you can't use ult to split push because you need to have the ult to get back into the fight after dying). - You need to die early enough that there are still people worth ulting to after you Revive (teamfights need to be engaged in a way that you're the first to die--and there are a lot of teamcomps that simply don't allow you to be the first one to die. To build on this, "if"s are really only good in solo queue. They're gimmicky. I've found that in solo queue, though, the gimmicky team can often win because people often don't know how to react or don't adapt their playstyle properly to counter the cheesey play. So, could it work? Sure. Is it actually useful? Idk, you'd have to try it out and let us know =P
tbh i feel it's quite the opposite. gimmicky strats like promote mid or something like revive will almost never work 'as planned' in solo q whereas it's possible to create the appropriate conditions for fringe strategies like these in competitive games
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On July 31 2012 01:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:53 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
idk i feel like if revive was ever viable, shen would be the first person i'd want it on. will try Realistically I'd say Pantheon is more likely to get good use out of it, simply because die->revive->ult is much more feasible for him. His kit is more capable of creating situations where they HAVE to kill him first.
tf might be able to get away with it too, both kinda require the fight to be happening at max distance of ~ a little past river for you to be able to get there in time.
edit: i will say that, having spent a decent amount of time doing revive panth in the past (back when ult was global), the timing for revive + ult is something that takes a bit of getting used to.
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what you describe is someone who's playing bad, but if he's in the same game as you he's probably around the same skill level as you assuming he's trying to win
Well not neccesarily; extreme example, if you're 20-0 Mid and 0-20 Top at 1600 ELO, you'd still be 1600 ELO even if you're not even close to a 1600 Top.
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point is to not automatically assume someone in your game is beyond hope just because hes playing bad and think you can carry harder as a jungler
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isn't the problem with revive that you get to use it about twice all game, if that, and you're playing with 1 summoner all early game?
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On July 31 2012 01:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:53 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
idk i feel like if revive was ever viable, shen would be the first person i'd want it on. will try Realistically I'd say Pantheon is more likely to get good use out of it, simply because die->revive->ult is much more feasible for him. His kit is more capable of creating situations where they HAVE to kill him first.
Karthus and TF also obvious revive candidates
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United States47024 Posts
On July 31 2012 02:02 zulu_nation8 wrote:
point is to not automatically assume someone in your game is beyond hope just because hes playing bad and think you can carry harder as a jungler
I think we already established that you vastly underestimate a jungler's ability to carry a game like 2 pages ago.
On July 31 2012 02:06 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 01:56 TheYango wrote:On July 31 2012 01:53 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
idk i feel like if revive was ever viable, shen would be the first person i'd want it on. will try Realistically I'd say Pantheon is more likely to get good use out of it, simply because die->revive->ult is much more feasible for him. His kit is more capable of creating situations where they HAVE to kill him first. Karthus and TF also obvious revive candidates
Karthus has to devote 2 summoners to it so it starts to get hairy.
TF could, but you have to play pretty carefully to still actually get something done before you suicide the first time.
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On July 31 2012 02:02 greggy wrote:
isn't the problem with revive that you get to use it about twice all game, if that, and you're playing with 1 summoner all early game?
Depends how long the game goes. In bot games I die too much on my smurf and end up not having any death downtime with revive.
I've asked people to lane with them, and recently I switched lanes with a tryndamere who was losing lane to jax. He was only 0-2 or something and just left lane so I didn't want top to go down and stayed there the rest of the lane phase. Enemy Jax was 2 levels ahead of me (6/7 when I arrived) all game and had 2/3 dorans and a long sword and boots, and in a mirror matchup I couldn't trade, but jax farms like a beast under tower if you're used to him so I stayed even and didn't die after that. Tryndamere started doing well in ganks on the other lane, and jungling well. After a certain level, smite just doesn't do much for jungle sustain.
There are other options than just taxing a lane. Not always possible. Skarner isn't going to be switching with the AD carry or mid to lane instead of them, but perhaps you could ask mid and bot to switch.
Perhaps try these out.
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On July 31 2012 01:58 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what you describe is someone who's playing bad, but if he's in the same game as you he's probably around the same skill level as you assuming he's trying to win. You gave the impression you were taking a solo's farm that he otherwise could've had to now only taking farm that he couldn't have gotten anyway. You have the mindest of me me me, like soniv except soniv is talking about mid, when as a jungler your job is to babysit the fuck out of a losing lane doing whatever it takes to help him back into the game.
You act like there is no such thing as a lost cause. Occasionally, it just is. Maybe he's just bad at mid, but got stuck there. Maybe he's trying to learn a new champion or role in ranked (bad idea, btw). Maybe he got carried in every game and his "real" ELO is quite lower.
Sometimes, it's just a lost cause. Say I took (and this is a big estimate) 1k gold worth of minions/blue from him. Assuming that he had actually managed to get all those last hits (he wouldn't), that 1k would have got him, what, a Blasting Rod or a couple Amp tomes. On the other hand, it would have let me get an extra Chain Vest and 4 wards. I didn't assume he'd buy wards because I didn't see him buy one all game, and his lane was always unwarded.
40 AP vs 45 armor and map awareness. 40 AP that is almost assuredly wasted, because even the things he did land were already doing nearly nothing to the enemy, more likely he'd die instantly (40 AP doesn't keep you alive) and it would be wasted. On the other hand, 4 wards stops ganks, shows buffs when I put them in the enemy jungle, and prevents free dragons. 45 armor means, even if I die, it won't be quick, and I'll eat more hits from the AD carry that someone else won't have to.
In reality it was probably more like ~400 gold at most (less in all likelyhood), which meant I got to buy wards and get items quicker, while it slowed down his DC. Would that faster DC have made him play better? No. Nope, more damage means zilch if you die instantly because you have no map awareness and try to initiate as a squishy AP carry.
I honestly don't know why you're trying to paint me as the bad guy here. I said repeatedly I will help people who are just having a bad game, people who got camped or what not. I'm not doing this to every mid, I'm not doing it to the guy who messed up and gave first blood, I'm doing it to the player who very obviously is contributing nothing to the team, even if he were to get gold. I did nothing wrong, and in the future I'd do it to any top, mid, or bot who was playing horridly and had no chance at redemption.
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all i can say is your mindset is wrong, and no yango i'm right
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I've had my epiphany about how to play Udyr. Just be like Singed, except your core is a bit more expensive.
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On July 31 2012 02:19 zulu_nation8 wrote:
all i can say is your mindset is wrong, and no yango i'm right
o ya ur totally right man :D
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ok maybe once out of twenty games you can single handedly carry a game as jungler with useless solos.
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Ya dude you're right I should have just hoped that the 0-5 Veigar with 30 cs carried the game. But if we lost it's ok because at least I wasn't a meanie who stole his farm. I feel really bad about winning that game now.
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EPT
