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just going to make some quick comments about the last couple pages since I've been away
-Ahri vs. Ryze : The responce that rune prison can actually punish Ahri was probly enough of a response. but I just wanted to add that in my opinion Ryze is currently the strongest champion in the game. After the "nerf" Cass does not even counter him anymore, so he has 0 bad lane matchups with a retarded lategame involving building almost full tank and doing more damage than the enemy AP
-Reneckton vs. Yorick : Just when I thought you could not get more annoying than Yorick ghouls not giving gold I found out that Yorick ghouls do not return life from Reneckton Q, or so I've been told, they do give hp for hiten style so not sure.
-PD vs. 3Force [Draven] : honestly (and lets be real the amount I play ad this is a 1200 opinion at best) I feel like triforce on ad is an item built for early game strength. Of the ADs considered triforce ADs I play Ez, and I feel like the entire reason is for sheen in lane, and then to not have to sell the sheen later. After BT/LW/IE the Sheen bonus damage feels pretty shitty at best it's extra mana for qs (In which case manamune would be better) and a little boost in health from the phage.
Now you take into consideration that Draven's passive scales with crit and I think PD outshines x-force in every way past the lane phase. Also (mabye no longer true after the Ez mana changes) the mana crystal for sheen not nearly as important on Draven.
tl;dr PD>3Force on Draven
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On June 14 2012 01:52 Slusher wrote:
just going to make some quick comments about the last couple pages since I've been away
-Ahri vs. Ryze : The responce that rune prison can actually punish Ahri was probly enough of a response. but I just wanted to add that in my opinion Ryze is currently the strongest champion in the game. After the "nerf" Cass does not even counter him anymore, so he has 0 bad lane matchups with a retarded lategame involving building almost full tank and doing more damage than the enemy AP
-Reneckton vs. Yorick : Just when I thought you could not get more annoying than Yorick ghouls not giving gold I found out that Yorick ghouls do not return life from Reneckton Q, or so I've been told, they do give hp for hiten style so not sure.
-PD vs. 3Force [Draven] : honestly (and lets be real the amount I play ad this is a 1200 opinion at best) I feel like triforce on ad is an item built for early game strength. Of the ADs considered triforce ADs I play Ez, and I feel like the entire reason is for sheen in lane, and then to not have to sell the sheen later. After BT/LW/IE the Sheen bonus damage feels pretty shitty at best it's extra mana for qs (In which case manamune would be better) and a little boost in health from the phage.
Now you take into consideration that Draven's passive scales with crit and I think PD outshines x-force in every way past the lane phase. Also (mabye no longer true after the Ez mana changes) the mana crystal for sheen not nearly as important on Draven.
tl;dr PD>3Force on Draven
Um...Ryze is definitely NOT the strongest champion in the game right now. He's certainly strong, but that is a very large claim. I would almost always rather a good Anivia or Karthus than a Ryze. Also, Ryze's early game is very weak. Champions like Viktor or Morde or even Heimer can give him trouble (ie: hard pushers/lane bullies).
I would say that Ryze beats Ahri late game because of his W and magic machine gun style. However, until he gains power, Ahri outranges him, can push the lane harder and roam, and can be an all around bully. This is less true since her early game nerfs, but still remains basically true because of her kit.
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sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 13 2012 22:56 spinesheath wrote:
True, a greater tradeoff for warding might be good for LoL. Limiting wards doesn't sound great though, because it's not a tradeoff for safety, it's just a limit for safety. Instead, ward prices could be higher. But maybe having just a few wards shouldn't be that expensive. So wards could become more expensive the more you currently have. Or they could last shorter the more you have placed. Stuff like that.
Probably easier to implement in LoL: Limited number of cheap wards and unlimited expensive wards.
I think some experimentation can be done with ward vision range. In particular, reduce the vision range of pink wards significantly. Limit the number of green wards that can be bought, but allow unlimited pink wards.
One critical breakpoint is that the gold bounty for getting a kill should not be significantly more than the cost required to ward all entrances to your lane. As it stands, 3 green wards costs 225 gold, and you get 300 for a kill. This means that someone who's ahead and has gotten a kill can effectively isolate his lane by warding all possible gank routes, and still be leveraging a 75 gold + XP advantage against the person he killed.
This is another one of the ironies of LoL actually--despite people citing denying as a way for someone winning lane to shut their opponent out of the game by pulling the lane back and denying everything, it's actually far more suffocating in LoL, where someone can ward out and block almost all attempts by the enemy team to recover that lane.
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actually whenever i watch a pro game with a corki vs some other ad and the corki goes for the trinity (while the other ad goes standard ie->pd route) i feel like the corki does no dmg while the other ad just melts people with auto attacks, and from then on, corki is always one item behind in the standard ad items arms race and his team just lacks damage. does triforce really do enough damage early to compensate for the weaker scaling?
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Spinning axes trigger his passive too, so his crits triggering it isn't a huge deal since you're usually chucking spinning axes anyways.
If you don't like attackspeed on Draven, why would you go Triforce? I think either Triforce or PD would work fine, but if you go something like IE/Triforce you're putting 7900 gold into two items. And IE is waay too important to not get, and I don't really think Trinity Force is good enough for Draven to get first. Phantom Dancer is comparatively cheap and gives the same amount of movespeed, more attack speed, and more crits. What makes Draven strong is his ability to followup his spinning axes by bloodrushing to catch up someone and follow them up more, adding crits on that means your kill potential is way higher. At least in my experience.
Also the difference in attack speed is (assuming level 18, beskerers greaves, and blood rush is active):
without PD 1.28
with PD 1.79
(Note: didn't remember to include the attack speed mastery :>).
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@Soniv I mainly went to such an extreme to spark a conversation on what they felt the strongest champions are. That isn't to say I don't think Ryze is the strongest because I do, I am suprised at such a resounding no from an opinion I think highly of. The changes to his auto have made last hits under tower as Ryze far easier than it used to be. It does suck for your teammates when you can't punish for roaming, but on the flipside he has excellent gank support with w. when they try to shove you under.
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On June 14 2012 02:27 Slusher wrote:
@Soniv I mainly went to such an extreme to spark a conversation on what they felt the strongest champions are. That isn't to say I don't think Ryze is the strongest because I do, I am suprised at such a resounding no from an opinion I think highly of. The changes to his auto have made last hits under tower as Ryze far easier than it used to be. It does suck for your teammates when you can't punish for roaming, but on the flipside he has excellent gank support with w. when they try to shove you under.
I agree that Ryze is strong. His late game is terrifying if his midgame goes well. However, any team that has a Ryze is HIGHLY susceptible to any form of early counterjungling (barring a very strong jungler behind Ryze). Now, obviously, this is not a characteristic that is unique to Ryze. Most of the late game mages have weaker early games (Kog instantly comes to mind), and thus are weak to counterjungling.
I find mid to be very interesting because while champ power is a factor, personal player skill is HUGE (Exhibit A: Froggen). This is coming from someone who has had large success with champions that are largely ignored and generally considered underpowered (Viktor, Heimer), as well as more mainstream mages (Cass, Karthus).
Gun to my head, if I had to pick the #1 AP right now, it would probably be Anivia. High skill cap, but her kit is so good that it doesn't matter what you build, as demonstrated by Froggen on numerous occasions. However, different situations and comps call for different mages and kits.
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On June 14 2012 02:39 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 02:27 Slusher wrote:
@Soniv I mainly went to such an extreme to spark a conversation on what they felt the strongest champions are. That isn't to say I don't think Ryze is the strongest because I do, I am suprised at such a resounding no from an opinion I think highly of. The changes to his auto have made last hits under tower as Ryze far easier than it used to be. It does suck for your teammates when you can't punish for roaming, but on the flipside he has excellent gank support with w. when they try to shove you under. I agree that Ryze is strong. His late game is terrifying if his midgame goes well. However, any team that has a Ryze is HIGHLY susceptible to any form of early counterjungling (barring a very strong jungler behind Ryze). Now, obviously, this is not a characteristic that is unique to Ryze. Most of the late game mages have weaker early games (Kog instantly comes to mind), and thus are weak to counterjungling. I find mid to be very interesting because while champ power is a factor, personal player skill is HUGE (Exhibit A: Froggen). This is coming from someone who has had large success with champions that are largely ignored and generally considered underpowered (Viktor, Heimer), as well as more mainstream mages (Cass, Karthus). Gun to my head, if I had to pick the #1 AP right now, it would probably be Anivia. High skill cap, but her kit is so good that it doesn't matter what you build, as demonstrated by Froggen on numerous occasions. However, different situations and comps call for different mages and kits.
Froggen is just OP aside from 1-2 mistakes that turned out to be big :D But Jiji played him pretty well at MLG as well. That hook + wall iso combo too stronk. Also the global presence that Karthus brings plus Noc for ganking in lane phaee plus kayle ult on him in team fights that TSM was running is pretty damn good as well. I think it especially is great for Regi as he is hyper aggressive and Karthus likes to get in close. Lol Imagine Kayle ult with Lulu ult followup on Karthus rofl.
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On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad.
I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm).
My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result.
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On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result.
Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm).
I laughed at this
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On June 14 2012 03:27 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). I laughed at this
Not sure what you're laughing at.
I have a spreadsheet that has maths on it. A TF does the same DPS on Vayne as an IE more or less vs a target dummy. Yes, it is theorycraft not a real game situation, but the theory is there.
Or maybe I'm not aware of current Vayne trends? I don't remember DL getting TF on Vayne during MLG.
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On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result.
I'm talking about more damage in practical application off of your first 4K gold after your early game core. it is dependent on the ranged AD being able to proc sheen at will, hence why ez and corki are buying triforces and Caitlyn and Ashe aren't, but a lot of characters that don't build triforce would still do more damage on just 6 K gold with 2 dblades zerkers triforce than they would with 2 dblades zerkers IE, it's just that it doesn't scale as well up to 10K gold when a PD can enter the mix.
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On June 14 2012 03:32 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result. I'm talking about more damage in practical application off of your first 4K gold after your early game core. it is dependent on the ranged AD being able to proc sheen at will, hence why ez and corki are buying triforces and Caitlyn and Ashe aren't, but a lot of characters that don't build triforce would still do more damage on just 6 K gold with 2 dblades zerkers triforce than they would with 2 dblades zerkers IE, it's just that it doesn't scale as well up to 10K gold when a PD can enter the mix.
I think phyvo is trying to say that his math shows IE to be better damage than TF on Draven, even in the situation you describe. It wouldn't surprise me given all of Draven's AD scaling factors.
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On June 14 2012 03:46 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:32 Mogwai wrote:On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result. I'm talking about more damage in practical application off of your first 4K gold after your early game core. it is dependent on the ranged AD being able to proc sheen at will, hence why ez and corki are buying triforces and Caitlyn and Ashe aren't, but a lot of characters that don't build triforce would still do more damage on just 6 K gold with 2 dblades zerkers triforce than they would with 2 dblades zerkers IE, it's just that it doesn't scale as well up to 10K gold when a PD can enter the mix. I think phyvo is trying to say that his math shows IE to be better damage than TF on Draven, even in the situation you describe. It wouldn't surprise me given all of Draven's AD scaling factors.
I'd like to see that math. His ad ratios don't strike me as impressive enough to overcome the innate benefit of Triforce Proc every 2 seconds + balanced attacking stats vs. focused attacking stats, but I obviously haven't done the math because I don't do that type of shit for ranged ADs.
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Strongest champ in the game is Sejuani.
Karthus.
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Fuck man Mantheon mid when they pick Kassadin just rules. I killed two Kassadins at level 2 twice today.
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On June 14 2012 04:39 Zhiroo wrote:
Fuck man Mantheon mid when they pick Kassadin just rules. I killed two Kassadins at level 2 twice today.
It's not so much fun when they have a decent jungler:p
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On June 14 2012 03:56 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 03:46 Seuss wrote:On June 14 2012 03:32 Mogwai wrote:On June 14 2012 03:12 phyvo wrote:On June 14 2012 02:01 Mogwai wrote:
sheen sucks, phage #1. every good player who gets trinity is getting their phage first. people buy trinity on spammy ranged ADs because for 200 more gold than IE, you get a lot more damage output immediately due to it giving balanced offensive stats. no idea if that makes it a good idea of draven, but at least theoretically speaking, it should be good on him because of the CD refresh on his W. practically speaking, I have no idea if it makes sense because I don't play ranged ad. I'd kind of like you to clarify here... are you talking about more burst damage (in which case nearly always yes) or more DPS (in which case it's dependent on the champ)? Draven is actually an example of a ranged DPS whose DPS suffers from buying TF instead of IE. Vayne is an example of a champ whose DPS hardly suffers at all from buying TF instead of IE (not that it's standard practice atm). My point of view is that TF is an early game dominance item because my experience is that if I build TF when my team isn't ahead I never do the amount of damage I want to do and my team dies as a result. I'm talking about more damage in practical application off of your first 4K gold after your early game core. it is dependent on the ranged AD being able to proc sheen at will, hence why ez and corki are buying triforces and Caitlyn and Ashe aren't, but a lot of characters that don't build triforce would still do more damage on just 6 K gold with 2 dblades zerkers triforce than they would with 2 dblades zerkers IE, it's just that it doesn't scale as well up to 10K gold when a PD can enter the mix. I think phyvo is trying to say that his math shows IE to be better damage than TF on Draven, even in the situation you describe. It wouldn't surprise me given all of Draven's AD scaling factors. I'd like to see that math. His ad ratios don't strike me as impressive enough to overcome the innate benefit of Triforce Proc every 2 seconds + balanced attacking stats vs. focused attacking stats, but I obviously haven't done the math because I don't do that type of shit for ranged ADs.
Draven's ratios are pretty good because of how often Spinning Axe can apply. He is also pretty good at chasing with his MS boost + axes, and has some utility in the form of Stand Aside (even if it's a little wonky), so I'd probably just want damage at that point. Also the higher crit on IE is better for his passive, though that's just icing on the cake.
A big part of getting 3force on (for example) ez/corki is that they don't have cc or MS boosts, and use more mana + AP than other carries like Draven. Also corki doesn't really have any 'normal' steroids, but his true damage calculates using the total triforce proc, and Ez can land the sheen/phage on-hits with his Q.
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It gets better when yours is Alistar. 
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EPT
