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Remember guys, this is the general discussion thread. Keep whine/QQ posts in the appropriate QQ memorial thread! Thanks! |
On April 18 2012 03:22 Darkren wrote:
Is anybody worried that Lol has too many champions, right now we are standing at 95 champions in total and the game is barely a year young.
Now some champions simply get outclassed by a copy of them doing better in the role for the team.
Riot doesn't seem to be slowing down on adding champions and i understand that it is a way for them to get money via skin/riot gold. But i see two big problem emerging.
1. We get over saturated with champions while in reality only a 40-50 champions are usable.
2.All of these new champions require balance, the old ones also, the metagame needs balance. If they are not carefull they won't know where to start. All of this takes manpower.
Toughts?
the 1st is not a problem atm. Nearly all champs are 'viable' (whatever that means), only community perception of champions really changes at all. The constant trend of 'rediscovering' awesome champions after nearly every tournament is pretty indicative of that.
the 2nd: riot is pretty rich atm and can and i believe are hiring quite a bit of staff. Also, as my previous response may have indicated, I'm of the opinion that on a large scale, Riot does a fairly decent job at balancing. There are certainly a few exceptions, and I think they do a little too much pandering to the community, but all i really have are small complaints.
also, Riot has stated that they do have a finite number of champions they will make. Now whether this is true or whether they plan to adhere to that is a different question entirely, but they did state some time ago (i think it was like beginning or middle of S1?) that they wouldn't indefinitely release champions.
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On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick.
kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier.
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On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick.
Well you don't buy it because it's going to be your third gp10.
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the problem with kage's is that the stats it offers is negligible simply due to poor AP ratios on supports, not because the stats it offer is bad.
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On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick.
If you buy kage, you get 10 wards over 25minutes while being able to afford other items. If you skip the kage, you'll be able to afford 10 wards over 25minutes while being able to buy other items faster as you don't need to stack wards.
Once you hit the 47min mark the only difference will be you having 25more AP, which is nothing compared to having more survivability earlier on in the game.
Also, if the ap on pick is so good, why dont more mids buy it so they can keep affording wards and have 25 ap more than the other mid? Free wards more ap.
Not a single champ is a trollpick, not even eve. Some champs just require more teamplanning around them, like eve or kat.
Eve shit in arranged play though.
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IIRC Xpecial bought 3 gold items each game (not sure if each, but most?) in the finals at IPL...
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On April 18 2012 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier.
SV has hinted he plans to use jungle twitch in an upcoming tourney.
and either way, the idea of 'tournament viability' and that every aspect of a game should be 'tournament viable' is a fairly silly one IMO. Infested terrans and scouts in BW were pretty universally considered garbage/'unviable', but that didn't somehow keep the game from being considered one of the best balanced game in existence.
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On April 18 2012 03:39 Celial wrote:
IIRC Xpecial bought 3 gold items each game (not sure if each, but most?) in the finals at IPL...
Supports buy 3 gold items in tourneys because most of the time teams are actively trying to extend the game as long as possible, because they tend to play extraordinarily safe. In 20-30 min games, buying 3 gold items simply does not make sense.
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The only char that cannot be played currently is Eve, but that is just because her base stats/growth were deliberatly nerfed so she would be completely unplayable.
Other than that every character is perfectly viable. The issue is pro players STILL only play whatever they feel like and are comfortable with. Its only when someone "discovers" how strong a champ is do we see new champs, but it isnt as though they were unviable before that point.
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On April 18 2012 03:41 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier. SV has hinted he plans to use jungle twitch in an upcoming tourney. and either way, the idea of 'tournament viability' and that every aspect of a game should be 'tournament viable' is a fairly silly one IMO. Infested terrans and scouts in BW were pretty universally considered garbage/'unviable', but that didn't somehow keep the game from being considered one of the best balanced game in existence.
I never said LoL was imbalanced, I merely said some champions aren't tournament viable.
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On April 18 2012 03:44 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:41 barbsq wrote:On April 18 2012 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier. SV has hinted he plans to use jungle twitch in an upcoming tourney. and either way, the idea of 'tournament viability' and that every aspect of a game should be 'tournament viable' is a fairly silly one IMO. Infested terrans and scouts in BW were pretty universally considered garbage/'unviable', but that didn't somehow keep the game from being considered one of the best balanced game in existence. I never said LoL was imbalanced, I merely said some champions aren't tournament viable.
i took it as an extention of the discussion brought up by some other guy about lol's dev cycle and it leading to balance issues. If you weren't discussing it in that context then ignore the 2nd part of the post.
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On April 18 2012 03:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
The only char that cannot be played currently is Eve, but that is just because her base stats/growth were deliberatly nerfed so she would be completely unplayable.
Other than that every character is perfectly viable. The issue is pro players STILL only play whatever they feel like and are comfortable with. Its only when someone "discovers" how strong a champ is do we see new champs, but it isnt as though they were unviable before that point.
I look at it like queens in brood war. They are viable, sure, but it takes learning so much and practicing so much more to use them that they are usually only used in very specific situations that happen rarely.
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I look at eve as more like a Scout......
Like sure you make the other team look stupid and embarrass them completely but takes a special someone to pull that off and cluelessness from the enemy to get killed by it.
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On April 18 2012 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier.
Dunno about twitch but kat certainly is not a troll. OFC if you pick her vs a janna/alistar/udyr/sion/ashe team you are just asking to lose but she is a good pick, veery situational but good.
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LoL needs 8 bans. 
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Single most important change at this point is a switch to dota style bans. It would open up top lane SO much more.
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On April 18 2012 03:46 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:44 wei2coolman wrote:On April 18 2012 03:41 barbsq wrote:On April 18 2012 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. kat and twitch are troll picks in tourney setting. in high elo they're still solid, but that's cause solo queue high elo is still joke tier. SV has hinted he plans to use jungle twitch in an upcoming tourney. and either way, the idea of 'tournament viability' and that every aspect of a game should be 'tournament viable' is a fairly silly one IMO. Infested terrans and scouts in BW were pretty universally considered garbage/'unviable', but that didn't somehow keep the game from being considered one of the best balanced game in existence. I never said LoL was imbalanced, I merely said some champions aren't tournament viable. i took it as an extention of the discussion brought up by some other guy about lol's dev cycle and it leading to balance issues. If you weren't discussing it in that context then ignore the 2nd part of the post.
OH, the reason i brought up lol's development cycle was that i thought it was annoyingly fast paced, not really any balance issues w/ champion release.
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On April 18 2012 03:33 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 03:28 turdburgler wrote:On April 18 2012 03:16 JackDino wrote:On April 18 2012 03:00 Celial wrote:
On the Lucky Pick: Spellsy wrote a big ass guide to how to support, and he specifically stated that there is often the case he would get the pick. Actually its more based around the very very specific Aegis timing. He explains that an Aegis is only valuable in a teamfight if gotten by 22 minutes. If you get it later, its not nearly as useful. If you can't get an Aegis at that mark, go for the pick. On the other hand if your early goes really well, forget the Aegis, rush Shurelias and get a pick to keep the money flowing for wards + oracles. If you dont sell the pick, it pays for itself in 25minutes and 30 seconds. I'd rather buy 10 wards instantly, then buy 10 wards over the course of almost 26minutes and getting an almost worthless amount of ap. Especially at the 22minute mark. Aegis is better at all stages of the game, healing for 13 or so more as sona or soraka just isn't worth it. The reason people get away with buying shitty items like the pick is because a supports utility comes from spells more than from items(everyone can buy dem items), and even the shittiest players can get carried. declares ap worthless than follows on that kage sucks. you dont need to buy 10 wards at a time you need to be able to afford constant wards. i cant think of a reason to not buy pick. you could argue that hog and philo have worthless stats too. when an ad can 2 shot you either way hog has no value. neither kat nor twitch are troll picks at all. they both have situations where they are really good. eve is basically the only hero in the game thats a troll pick. Well you don't buy it because it's going to be your third gp10.
Are you sure you've played with me before?
Edit: yeah i really want to see how dota style bans will change the game too.
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On April 18 2012 04:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
Single most important change at this point is a switch to dota style bans. It would open up top lane SO much more.
how do dota bans work? I was a pretty casual dota player and just played AR and AP.
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On April 18 2012 04:10 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 04:04 Two_DoWn wrote:
Single most important change at this point is a switch to dota style bans. It would open up top lane SO much more. how do dota bans work? I was a pretty casual dota player and just played AR and AP.
3 bans for each team to start (I forget how they split these up). Then a 1-2-2-1 pick phase. Then a 1-1-1-1 ban phase (2 more for each team) then a 1-1-1-1 pick phase.
In other words, it lets you pick things then ban out the worst counters immediatly afterwards.
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EPT
