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[Patch 1.0.0.135: Fiora] General Discussion - Page 228

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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.

Thanks. Happy Gaming.
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 19 2012 14:45 GMT
#4541
weather or not ELO hell does exist the number of people I've met in this game whos' self diagnosis of their own skill was inflated beyond belief. at the "ELO hell" range of 11k-13k (I think that is what people claim it is) a lot of the players can't even tell which lanes are ahead/behind, so naturally they think it isn't their fault.

basically, ELO may exist, but as far as being the real problem, it pales in comparison to 1200s being able to determine a well played game vs a poorly played one.
Carrilord has arrived.
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
March 19 2012 14:46 GMT
#4542
On March 19 2012 23:42 robertdinh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:40 mr_tolkien wrote:
On March 19 2012 23:16 red_ wrote:
robertdinh you seem to have missed the opportunity to introduce me to these 'really great players' stuck at 1400. I was aware that they are obviously not famous because of Elo Hell, and was giving you the chance to shine light upon them, get them known, so that they can no longer live their plight. So, if you would please, I am awaiting the information of these players.

<- still stuck on that one personnaly. Waiting for the names so I can become a hipster fan !


Do you think I would expose great players to scrutiny just to satisfy the curiosity of players who don't consider all of the variables and probably use solo queue elo as a measuring tool and consider it more accurate than it actually is?

Of course since they're good oO What is the problem ? Don't you want them to succeed in becoming well known and instigated players even with 1k4 elo ?

I don't understand your logic. They are great players, right ?
The legend of Darien lives on
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 19 2012 14:46 GMT
#4543
On March 19 2012 23:33 robertdinh wrote:
You still seem to assume that leavers trolls and dcs happen equally to both teams, they don't. They are random, and you don't play with the same people under the same circumstances over and over. It could happen 90% of the time to one player, and 40% of the time to another player. But players involved in the random elements will move on and play other games, skewing those results as well, until it all ripples out.

My mind is still completely boggled by the fact that you can believe that one player's frequency of getting trolls/leavers/DCs on their team can be randomly and inexplicably higher than someone else's, and that this does NOT average out over many games.

The only identifying feature of anyone being matchmade is their Elo. There is absolutely no reasoning by which you can say player X has a higher chance of getting leavers/trolls/DCs than player Y.
Moderator
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 14:50:44
March 19 2012 14:48 GMT
#4544
On March 19 2012 23:45 Slusher wrote:
weather or not ELO hell does exist the number of people I've met in this game whos' self diagnosis of their own skill was inflated beyond belief. at the "ELO hell" range of 11k-13k (I think that is what people claim it is) a lot of the players can't even tell which lanes are ahead/behind, so naturally they think it isn't their fault.

basically, ELO may exist, but as far as being the real problem, it pales in comparison to 1200s being able to determine a well played game vs a poorly played one.


This I agree with, but you can also make the argument that elo hell itself helps to skew people's perceptions of how good or bad they or the people in the games with them are.

But back to the spirit behind what you were saying, that kind of issue is apparent at all elos but tapers off a lot after 2k when people generally have a clue of how to play (there are still exceptions even at that high a rating)

On March 19 2012 23:46 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:33 robertdinh wrote:
You still seem to assume that leavers trolls and dcs happen equally to both teams, they don't. They are random, and you don't play with the same people under the same circumstances over and over. It could happen 90% of the time to one player, and 40% of the time to another player. But players involved in the random elements will move on and play other games, skewing those results as well, until it all ripples out.

My mind is still completely boggled by the fact that you can believe that one player's frequency of getting trolls/leavers/DCs on their team can be randomly and inexplicably higher than someone else's, and that this does NOT average out over many games.

The only identifying feature of anyone being matchmade is their Elo. There is absolutely no reasoning by which you can say player X has a higher chance of getting leavers/trolls/DCs than player Y.


Damn man, you are still stuck on probability, i am not talking about probability here, I am talking about reality, and the reality of it is every player is not exposed to the same group of players or the same amount of leavers/dcs/trolls.
True skill comes without effort.
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
March 19 2012 14:49 GMT
#4545
It would be incredibly helpful if we had reliable replays to evaluate what actually happened (to yourself and other lanes), rather than only receiving a general measurement through K/D ratios and CS. Granted, I doubt the people who need it most would use it, but it would be nice to at least have the option.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 19 2012 14:50 GMT
#4546
On March 19 2012 23:42 robertdinh wrote:
Really? Because it seems like every time they "smurf" they actually tell people in game who they are and to let them have whatever champion they want, or word gets out because they are actually streaming it and not smurfing at all.

Show me a 2k elo player that played a smurf account in complete anonymity and got back to the same elo in nearly the same amount of games played that it took his main account.

OK fine, Saintvicious has a higher chance of getting back to 2k Elo than I do.

The question is, do I fucking care? How about between two nobodies? Are their probabilities of getting trolls different?

I could care less that Saint gets an easy time in solo queue, because he's proven his worth in tournament play.
Moderator
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
March 19 2012 14:51 GMT
#4547
On March 19 2012 23:16 red_ wrote:
robertdinh you seem to have missed the opportunity to introduce me to these 'really great players' stuck at 1400. I was aware that they are obviously not famous because of Elo Hell, and was giving you the chance to shine light upon them, get them known, so that they can no longer live their plight. So, if you would please, I am awaiting the information of these players.

Sorry if I got some facts wrong here, it's been a while...

Iirc Regi was stuck at a relatively low elo at the start of the season for quite a while (150+ games I think). That was entirely his own fault though. He would get ahead and then just go rambo (diving 1v2 and the likes), either because he was being stupid or because he didn't realize that his team wasn't as fed as him and thus unable to follow him up (aka being stupid again). I can't imagine it was because he didn't care because his QQing kinda told a different story.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 14:53:20
March 19 2012 14:51 GMT
#4548
What do you guys think of a gardener type champion? She could drop Venus Fly Traps that imobilize and damage foes, Grow vines to pull them around, Use pollen to heal nearby enemies, and her ult could be an AOE effect that gives your team increased movespeed on a bed of flowers she summons?

Id post a concept pic from Google, but for some reason the only pics I can find of Dryads are NSFW. Sick fucks, looking at mother nature like that...

So instead we get some Rainbow Roses. Pretty sweet, no?
[image loading]

"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
March 19 2012 14:51 GMT
#4549
On March 19 2012 23:50 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:42 robertdinh wrote:
Really? Because it seems like every time they "smurf" they actually tell people in game who they are and to let them have whatever champion they want, or word gets out because they are actually streaming it and not smurfing at all.

Show me a 2k elo player that played a smurf account in complete anonymity and got back to the same elo in nearly the same amount of games played that it took his main account.

OK fine, Saintvicious has a higher chance of getting back to 2k Elo than I do.

The question is, do I fucking care? How about between two nobodies? Are their probabilities of getting trolls different?

I could care less that Saint gets an easy time in solo queue, because he's proven his worth in tournament play.


That seems to be the issue here, you don't seem to care about accuracy, yet you don't want to admit that solo queue ratings aren't that accurate because they don't take into account a wide array of variables.
True skill comes without effort.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 14:55:27
March 19 2012 14:52 GMT
#4550
On March 19 2012 23:51 robertdinh wrote:
That seems to be the issue here, you don't seem to care about accuracy, yet you don't want to admit that solo queue ratings aren't that accurate because they don't take into account a wide array of variables.

Except the number of people whose names are well-known enough that their player name actually skews their chance of winning a solo queue game is so small that it has a virtually inconsequential effect on every other player playing ranked.

Solo queue rating has poor resolution it's true. But that resolution is still good to ~100 Elo at the very least. There are probably 1400 players that could be 1500, but to suggest that there are 1400 players that could be 1900 is ludicrous. And likewise it's equally silly to suggest that a 1900 player is some 1400 player that somehow bumbled his way up there by getting really lucky.
Moderator
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 19 2012 14:55 GMT
#4551
On March 19 2012 23:51 Two_DoWn wrote:
What do you guys think of a gardener type champion? She could drop Venus Fly Traps that imobilize and damage foes, Grow vines to pull them around, Use pollen to heal nearby enemies, and her ult could be an AOE effect that gives your team increased movespeed on a bed of flowers she summons?

Id post a concept pic from Google, but for some reason the only pics I can find of Dryads are NSFW. Sick fucks, looking at mother nature like that...

So instead we get some Rainbow Roses. Pretty sweet, no?
[image loading]



I like it, but if they were to make another support champ, I'd want a bard. I guess Sona sorta fills this role but, my vision of a bard is a little different.
Carrilord has arrived.
robertdinh
Profile Joined June 2010
803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 14:57:30
March 19 2012 14:55 GMT
#4552
On March 19 2012 23:52 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:51 robertdinh wrote:
That seems to be the issue here, you don't seem to care about accuracy, yet you don't want to admit that solo queue ratings aren't that accurate because they don't take into account a wide array of variables.

Except the number of people whose names are well-known enough that their player name actually skews their chance of winning a solo queue game is so small that it has a virtually inconsequential effect on every other player playing ranked.

Solo queue rating has poor resolution it's true. But that resolution is still good to ~100 Elo at the very least. There are probably 1400 players that could be 1500, but to suggest that there are 1400 players that could be tournament level is ludicrous.


Yet the thinking that they use, their theories on the game, and the application of such theories is attempted at all elos by players that are much less proficient than them, further skewing results simply based on their reputation.

Go look up a player named comil on NA ladder. I guess ludicrous things happen.

The best part is he is actually more like a 1300 elo caliber player, his current rating is still very generous, let alone back when he was screwing people over at 2100 elo.
True skill comes without effort.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 15:01:40
March 19 2012 14:58 GMT
#4553
On March 19 2012 23:55 robertdinh wrote:
Yet the thinking that they use, their theories on the game, and the application of such theories is attempted at all elos by players that are much less proficient than them, further skewing results simply based on their reputation.

So what you're basically saying is that, for example, the fact that the metagame favors babysitting supports over roaming supports, means that if player X is good at roaming supports, and player Y is good at babysitting supports, that player Y has a better chance of winning games in solo queue because he's less likely to get people who will troll him when he plays what he's good at.

I think I can actually buy that argument.
Moderator
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 19 2012 15:00 GMT
#4554
On March 19 2012 23:55 Slusher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:51 Two_DoWn wrote:
What do you guys think of a gardener type champion? She could drop Venus Fly Traps that imobilize and damage foes, Grow vines to pull them around, Use pollen to heal nearby enemies, and her ult could be an AOE effect that gives your team increased movespeed on a bed of flowers she summons?

Id post a concept pic from Google, but for some reason the only pics I can find of Dryads are NSFW. Sick fucks, looking at mother nature like that...

So instead we get some Rainbow Roses. Pretty sweet, no?
[image loading]



I like it, but if they were to make another support champ, I'd want a bard. I guess Sona sorta fills this role but, my vision of a bard is a little different.

Ya, Sona is probably too close to a bard to get another support champ like that who uses music. But we dont have ANY gardeners.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Akinokaze
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 15:02:22
March 19 2012 15:00 GMT
#4555
On March 19 2012 23:55 Slusher wrote:
I like it, but if they were to make another support champ, I'd want a bard. I guess Sona sorta fills this role but, my vision of a bard is a little different.


I want Ragnarok Online style Bards. Think about it

I think a trap based support champ could be interesting actually.
In the Emperor we trust
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 15:02:21
March 19 2012 15:02 GMT
#4556
An Invoker-like Bard could be interesting. Each reagent could be a "note", and each spell would be a "song".
Sabin010
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1892 Posts
March 19 2012 15:02 GMT
#4557
So should Riot give everybody with allergies a 500 Elo boost because in the spring when the flowers come up they cause people to sneeze and miss creep or walk into a 5v1s? There are going to be people who are on both ends of the spectrum getting carried/ counter picked every game. Why complain about it? We're not really having intelligent discussion if we can't even agree on using logic, and averages. If you think the system is flawed, suggest a new system, instead of just telling us its bad. If you think you're a victim of variance, and Riots match making has something against you use this thread.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220361
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
March 19 2012 15:02 GMT
#4558
On March 19 2012 23:48 robertdinh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:45 Slusher wrote:
weather or not ELO hell does exist the number of people I've met in this game whos' self diagnosis of their own skill was inflated beyond belief. at the "ELO hell" range of 11k-13k (I think that is what people claim it is) a lot of the players can't even tell which lanes are ahead/behind, so naturally they think it isn't their fault.

basically, ELO may exist, but as far as being the real problem, it pales in comparison to 1200s being able to determine a well played game vs a poorly played one.


This I agree with, but you can also make the argument that elo hell itself helps to skew people's perceptions of how good or bad they or the people in the games with them are.

But back to the spirit behind what you were saying, that kind of issue is apparent at all elos but tapers off a lot after 2k when people generally have a clue of how to play (there are still exceptions even at that high a rating)

Show nested quote +
On March 19 2012 23:46 TheYango wrote:
On March 19 2012 23:33 robertdinh wrote:
You still seem to assume that leavers trolls and dcs happen equally to both teams, they don't. They are random, and you don't play with the same people under the same circumstances over and over. It could happen 90% of the time to one player, and 40% of the time to another player. But players involved in the random elements will move on and play other games, skewing those results as well, until it all ripples out.

My mind is still completely boggled by the fact that you can believe that one player's frequency of getting trolls/leavers/DCs on their team can be randomly and inexplicably higher than someone else's, and that this does NOT average out over many games.

The only identifying feature of anyone being matchmade is their Elo. There is absolutely no reasoning by which you can say player X has a higher chance of getting leavers/trolls/DCs than player Y.


Damn man, you are still stuck on probability, i am not talking about probability here, I am talking about reality, and the reality of it is every player is not exposed to the same group of players or the same amount of leavers/dcs/trolls.


In reality, the Law of Large Numbers takes control. After a certain N number of games, assuming N is large enough, that frequency evens out for everyone.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-19 15:04:50
March 19 2012 15:03 GMT
#4559
Dear lord the nonsense is hurting my brain.

6% lifesteal is fairly inconsequential as far as sustain goes early on, but you do get back approximately 50HP a minute from it assuming you're not completely zoned out (about half the efficiency of HP regen quints). The gold value is slightly lower than AD runes.

The thing about lifesteal is that you need a certain sweetspot and that usually depends on the matchup. Too much lifesteal can be a waste, and too little can also be a waste. It's really just a matter of playing around with runing according to your item flow.

For example, if you're going wriggles first on nidalee, lifesteal quints suck because you're probably opening boots and building wriggles right after. If you're going Dblade first on nidalee, lifesteal quints become a little more viable, since you might going 2 dblade into sheen to start, and that synergizes together nicely.
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
March 19 2012 15:04 GMT
#4560
The insinuation that all smurfs at high elo are pros and/or extremely well known/active streamers is now my new favorite part of this discussion.
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
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