Needs more rotating reference frames and spherical co-oridinates!
The jungles, in effect, rotates the Momentum of Lane vector away from the natural incidient, chaotically influencing the torque of trading (which creates the "back and forth effect") and ... yeah I got nothing.
Bottom lane is complicated not only because there are numerous matchups, but the nature of AD carries (usually lack of early burst, thus loss of kill power, and a focus on farming) and the protective factor of supports tend to even out power curves. In other words, most matchups are relatively close by LoL standards, require more knowledge to properly exploit an advantage, and less of a lead is gained with success. Which is all, in turn, exacerbated by the sheer number of match ups.
Every matchup changes based on which side you are on, as well as which junglers are in the game as well.
So we now that CLG.eu will be there at the Take TV house, and Snoopeh already said that Oce is coming too (so SK will be there too?) Lots of teams will be participating in the tourney, but not all will be there live.
Oh and apparently Wickd offered to give Rainman tips on his Irelia but he declined
Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
That entirely depends on how well that bot lane is at warding. If you are a good support, you will keep tabs on the enemy wards. I time them myself and find out the gaps for jungle ganks.
A lot of the time a support wants to have vision of both tribrush entrance and river entrance. So they ward in the middle of it. But then you don't have vision of dragon. So when aggressive junglers get their first items and can solo dragon, many supports choose to ward tribrush itself and dragon+blue entrance. If you then push the lane you can ask for a lane gank.
That and good supports carry pink wards to clear for ganks.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Third- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
Finally- Bot (and top) are a bitch to get to. Mid isnt.
the thing you arent considering is that after your first back, the relative kill power of your 3 is insane compared to the survivability of the support. someone who probably has no defensive runes masteries or items. 3v2 maybe be harder than 2v1 on paper but a support only has half the staying power of the 'average' hero.
and if they are pushing your tower, just go into their jungle if you are purple and go in their tribush, or just hope that their wards have recently ended.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Lastly- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
The nature of a pushed lane itself also hinders the gank: there's probably lots of creeps on one side, and hardly any on the other. Unless you actually catch them diving the tower, the creeps are either going to function as added damage, or just an annoying wall that makes it hard for the pushed team to help assist the actual gank. I can't tell how many times a jungler has come without communication, gone to gank 1v2 while me and my support run to assist, then bitches that we weren't there faster because we were playing defensive at our tower to avoid poke and then had to path around a creep wall.
Edit: All that said, there's a difference between bot lanes thinking it's an 'easy' gank, and bot lane thinking they 'need' a gank because they are constantly pushed.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Lastly- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
The nature of a pushed lane itself also hinders the gank: there's probably lots of creeps on one side, and hardly any on the other. Unless you actually catch them diving the tower, the creeps are either going to function as added damage, or just an annoying wall that makes it hard for the pushed team to help assist the actual gank. I can't tell how many times a jungler has come without communication, gone to gank 1v2 while me and my support run to assist, then bitches that we weren't there faster because we were playing defensive at our tower to avoid poke and then had to path around a creep wall.
Edit: All that said, there's a difference between bot lanes thinking it's an 'easy' gank, and bot lane thinking they 'need' a gank because they are constantly pushed.
This is probably my new most-annoying-thing-ever.
Solo toplane, tower pushing to my turret with both me and the opponent full hp and like 20 minions attacking my turret. He comes -> I obviously start farming the minions because otherwise I just lose them and we have no chance to catch the toplaner either. -> Jungler generally goes to chase that person and when he sees it's 1v1 he fights back and usually kills the jungler. And then the jungler complains about you not coming even though the other person would have escaped effortlessly if he was 2 people coming after him.
However I do love it when the enemy jungler ganks me like that because I just run away and because in those cases the toplaner chases me instead of farming(aka doing the correct decision) he loses the 20 minions and jungler time for absolutely free =)
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because you can't effectively ward off all gank paths with one ward. Warding the riverbrush only gives you sufficient warning for ganks coming through the river. If the enemy jungler ganks via the tribrush they won't be detected in time for you to completely avoid them regardless of which side you're on (although it's significantly more dangerous if you're blue). You may still get away, but summoners will almost certainly be blown in the process.
Another reason it's considered easy is because most people have really bad map awareness. If you watch a 1200-1400 level replay the lagtime between a jungler appearing on the minimap and players noticing is often 5-10 seconds. If the players in question are pushed to the enemy turret that's more than enough time for an enemy jungler to saunter right past their ward.
It's not, in actuality, a "free kill" as some people believe. If the team hugging their tower is injured it's actually extremely dangerous, as that situation can easily turn into kills for the enemy. However, a lot of players overestimate the effectiveness of their wards and you can abuse that mistake if you have the know-how.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Lastly- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
The nature of a pushed lane itself also hinders the gank: there's probably lots of creeps on one side, and hardly any on the other. Unless you actually catch them diving the tower, the creeps are either going to function as added damage, or just an annoying wall that makes it hard for the pushed team to help assist the actual gank. I can't tell how many times a jungler has come without communication, gone to gank 1v2 while me and my support run to assist, then bitches that we weren't there faster because we were playing defensive at our tower to avoid poke and then had to path around a creep wall.
Edit: All that said, there's a difference between bot lanes thinking it's an 'easy' gank, and bot lane thinking they 'need' a gank because they are constantly pushed.
This is probably my new most-annoying-thing-ever.
Solo toplane, tower pushing to my turret with both me and the opponent full hp and like 20 minions attacking my turret. He comes -> I obviously start farming the minions because otherwise I just lose them and we have no chance to catch the toplaner either. -> Jungler generally goes to chase that person and when he sees it's 1v1 he fights back and usually kills the jungler. And then the jungler complains about you not coming even though the other person would have escaped effortlessly if he was 2 people coming after him.
However I do love it when the enemy jungler ganks me like that because I just run away and because in those cases the toplaner chases me instead of farming(aka doing the correct decision) he loses the 20 minions and jungler time for absolutely free =)
Yea it's really annoying. Inevitably the jungler yells at you for wasting his time even though you didn't ask him to be there; but because he pinged the target announcing his gank you are on some unspoken agreement to give up 400 gold and 1 level worth of cs to go make someone blow flash.
Note to junglers: I know this is not all of you, and that some of you actually analyze ganks to see if the lane is worth being ganked, able to be ganked, and the laners are able to assist the gank(if needed, we all love those times when people extend so much you get free kills and lane can just keep farming).
never really considered that casters who do nothing but cast replays would have to compete with all the livestreams why wasn't this a problem for sc2? is it simply because the casters all became really big before pros started their streams?
On March 13 2012 06:50 Doctorbeat wrote:Oh and apparently Wickd offered to give Rainman tips on his Irelia but he declined
Worst decision I've ever seen anyone make
On March 13 2012 07:54 red_ wrote:
On March 13 2012 07:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Lastly- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
The nature of a pushed lane itself also hinders the gank: there's probably lots of creeps on one side, and hardly any on the other. Unless you actually catch them diving the tower, the creeps are either going to function as added damage, or just an annoying wall that makes it hard for the pushed team to help assist the actual gank. I can't tell how many times a jungler has come without communication, gone to gank 1v2 while me and my support run to assist, then bitches that we weren't there faster because we were playing defensive at our tower to avoid poke and then had to path around a creep wall.
Edit: All that said, there's a difference between bot lanes thinking it's an 'easy' gank, and bot lane thinking they 'need' a gank because they are constantly pushed.
This is probably my new most-annoying-thing-ever.
Solo toplane, tower pushing to my turret with both me and the opponent full hp and like 20 minions attacking my turret. He comes -> I obviously start farming the minions because otherwise I just lose them and we have no chance to catch the toplaner either. -> Jungler generally goes to chase that person and when he sees it's 1v1 he fights back and usually kills the jungler. And then the jungler complains about you not coming even though the other person would have escaped effortlessly if he was 2 people coming after him.
However I do love it when the enemy jungler ganks me like that because I just run away and because in those cases the toplaner chases me instead of farming(aka doing the correct decision) he loses the 20 minions and jungler time for absolutely free =)
Yea it's really annoying. Inevitably the jungler yells at you for wasting his time even though you didn't ask him to be there; but because he pinged the target announcing his gank you are on some unspoken agreement to give up 400 gold and 1 level worth of cs to go make someone blow flash.
Note to junglers: I know this is not all of you, and that some of you actually analyze ganks to see if the lane is worth being ganked, able to be ganked, and the laners are able to assist the gank(if needed, we all love those times when people extend so much you get free kills and lane can just keep farming).
Chasing when you shouldn't be chasing isn't a role specific problem. As a jungler, I'm happy to chunk someone or force a summoner and then go back to jungling happy that I gave my lane an advantage and/or give myself an opportunity to counter jungle, but sometimes you really do feel that you could have converted the gank into a kill and get a bit annoyed - it's the lack of voice communication that makes this hard, it's impossible to tell whether your allies are going to commit or not (prisoner's dilemma!).
It's just safer in Solo Q to not rely on everyone doing the right thing.
On March 13 2012 09:00 Frolossus wrote: never really considered that casters who do nothing but cast replays would have to compete with all the livestreams why wasn't this a problem for sc2? is it simply because the casters all became really big before pros started their streams?
there are not many casters in sc2 who had alot of success with this. In LoL it is also very hard to give a solid analysis atm because not even the pros know for sure how the game works. There are too many unexplored possibilities, ifs and maybes. The most solid stuff is when a top gamer talks about a specific champion/matchup in a guide or replay analysis and stays in that area, but I didn't see alot of convincing stuff beyond that so far.
On March 13 2012 06:50 Doctorbeat wrote:Oh and apparently Wickd offered to give Rainman tips on his Irelia but he declined
Worst decision I've ever seen anyone make
On March 13 2012 07:54 red_ wrote:
On March 13 2012 07:42 Two_DoWn wrote:
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
Because people are stupid. The only lanes that you can realistically ever gank and NOT have it be pretty much a guaranteed waste of time are top and mid. There are too many factors involved with bot lane that make it the single riskiest gank you can actually do in terms of the farm/exp lost trade off.
First off- there is an extra champion involved. a 2v1 is a MUCH different scenario than a 3v2- namely, a 2v1 is very easy to convert into a kill, whereas a 3v2 is INCREDIBLY more difficult. Throw in the fact that every support has some form of cc? REALLY hard to actually convert a kill.
Secondly- the warding situation. Its warded. And even if it ISNT warded, you cant actually rely on your team knowing that. Not to mention drag is going to be warded as well, so you have to walk through a potential 3 ward areas in order to even GET to bot lane. Now, are there situations where that wont be warded? Sure. But then again, if you plan your game around your enemies being retarded, you might as well just get mejaj and SOTOC. But even if you get through, you end up in the situation in point 1- getting a 3v2 kill is pretty damn hard.
Lastly- the lane itself does not set itself up well for a gank. Just about the only thing it has going for it is that its long. Other than that, it sucks. Mid is GREAT. No bushes, lots of ways to avoid wards. Top and bot? A shit ton of bushes and only 2 access points. Both of which (see point 2) are warded.
The nature of a pushed lane itself also hinders the gank: there's probably lots of creeps on one side, and hardly any on the other. Unless you actually catch them diving the tower, the creeps are either going to function as added damage, or just an annoying wall that makes it hard for the pushed team to help assist the actual gank. I can't tell how many times a jungler has come without communication, gone to gank 1v2 while me and my support run to assist, then bitches that we weren't there faster because we were playing defensive at our tower to avoid poke and then had to path around a creep wall.
Edit: All that said, there's a difference between bot lanes thinking it's an 'easy' gank, and bot lane thinking they 'need' a gank because they are constantly pushed.
This is probably my new most-annoying-thing-ever.
Solo toplane, tower pushing to my turret with both me and the opponent full hp and like 20 minions attacking my turret. He comes -> I obviously start farming the minions because otherwise I just lose them and we have no chance to catch the toplaner either. -> Jungler generally goes to chase that person and when he sees it's 1v1 he fights back and usually kills the jungler. And then the jungler complains about you not coming even though the other person would have escaped effortlessly if he was 2 people coming after him.
However I do love it when the enemy jungler ganks me like that because I just run away and because in those cases the toplaner chases me instead of farming(aka doing the correct decision) he loses the 20 minions and jungler time for absolutely free =)
Yea it's really annoying. Inevitably the jungler yells at you for wasting his time even though you didn't ask him to be there; but because he pinged the target announcing his gank you are on some unspoken agreement to give up 400 gold and 1 level worth of cs to go make someone blow flash.
Note to junglers: I know this is not all of you, and that some of you actually analyze ganks to see if the lane is worth being ganked, able to be ganked, and the laners are able to assist the gank(if needed, we all love those times when people extend so much you get free kills and lane can just keep farming).
As an active jungler, what I REALLY hate is when a lane demands ganks, and when I show up and gank the laner just stands there and doesn't fight at all. I've had this happen to me on several occasions. And obviously if they run far enough I don't tower dive, then they flame me for being a fail ganker because they expect me to beat the other guy 1v1 and tower dive them and kill them because good junglers are invincible and can't die.
I rarely will chase someone all the way to their tower and it's worse when a laner just stands there and farms expecting me to do ALL the work in the gank, and yells at me for being a bad jungler if I don't kill the guy FOR HIM while he doesn't even try to make it a 2v1.
On March 13 2012 07:31 arnath wrote: Can someone explain to me why people that play bot lane think that the enemy being pushed up to our tower in bottom means it's an easy jungle gank? All this does is make it so that they can completely cover any gank paths with a single ward.
The only time I die to ganks bot lane is if I'm being really fucking stupid or if I tower dive (which could also fall under really fucking stupid). Bottom lane is pretty tough to gank because most ADs have an escape ability, and run flash, and run either Cleanse/Heal usually. Plus supports tend to either have CC, shields, heals, or all of the above. So yeah I usually don't expect my jungler to gank for me at bottom unless the enemy jungler is just camping our bot lane or the other team's bot lane is easy to gank (i.e., they're running like Soraka/Kog or they have no summoner's or w/e).
EPT
