EPT[Patch 1.0.0.135: Fiora] General Discussion - Page 120
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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:57 Node wrote: I remember I was pretty impressed back when Tyler streamed LoL, but I was substantially worse back then. Man, I haven't seen him post here since... the Riven GD, I think? Too bad, he's entertaining at everything he does. I think I've only played with Tyler and Jinro. Tyler's good, Jinro... not so much, lol. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On March 13 2012 04:59 Two_DoWn wrote: I just realized why it was so painful to try to explain why it might be a good thing for Dota 2 to embrace being slightly more accessable to new players in the Dota 2 General Dicussion thread: it is the very definition of an insulated community that bristles at the first sign of either A) new interest or B) ideas that are contrary to their own beliefes. The best example I can give is the MMA community- back before UFC took off and fights were anything goes. At some point someone must have gone up to a fan and said: "Ya know, this could really be a big thing, but you might want to get rid of the eye gouges and biting, and put people in weight classes." Just to get laughed at. Thats how I feel right now. Or perhaps your suggestion just wasn't very good. The general idea behind it is fine, and actually wasn't rejected(only by some people, that's going to happen anywhere), but you kept referring back to your original proposal as if attack animations will make or break the game's accessibility to a casual audience. Also running back to the LoL forum to bitch about it and try to form up your daisy chain is silly. You're also pretending that the LoL community has accepted proposed changed well, I mean the entire game is built inside the protective wall of 'anti-fun' from which Zileas(and thus the majority of the community who follows to his beat) refuses to budge. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
How to improve as an ad carry. Cuz I suck. And its really complicated cuz not only do I need to learn what ad carrys beat what, but what supports beat what. | ||
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.AK
United States561 Posts
On the topic of LoL vs. Dota. This is probably my favorite quote: On February 02 2012 Shirolol wrote: Let me just leave a few things here. Mcdonalds is popular. Justin bieber is popular. Reality TV is popular. Paris Hilton is popular. Do you see where i'm going with this? For some reason the fact is the MAJORITY of the world are complete fucking retards. League of legends is an atrocius game, dota 2 is better in every way - hell dota 1 is better in every way. The ONLY way that LoL has the upper hand is in how fucking easy it is to pickup and even how easy it is to play - at any level, honestly. Oh and it's free, which means all the urchins of the world can play it too - and since there's a lot of them as previously mentioned, it becomes very popular. That doesn't mean we should accept that and start praising it, because really let me just say it again - this game is fucking terrible. By calling the majority of the world "complete fucking retards", he somehow thinks people are going to switch games. What really gets me is that some of these people really think they are helping their game grow. They think that by insulting and demeaning other games people will switch over. But honestly how many people have switched games because of these internet arguments? Whether for LoL or against it, in reality I would wager that these arguments have very, very little effect on growing the scene. The only people I really see it affecting would be people like this, who are on the fence about playing LoL or dota, but at the end of the day people will play what they enjoy so spewing insults at other games isn't going to help. I would argue that these arguments we see on TL actually hurt whichever game they are trying to promote. Take this example. Say I'm a relatively newbie LoL player. I don't play a whole lot but I do enjoy the game whenever I get to play. I like playing LoL but I am not set on it being my one "main" game. I know what the pro-scene and I follow it sometimes, watching a major tournament every so often. Now one day I get introduced to a guy called Day9 on a podcast. This Day guy seems like a pretty cool dude but he plays Starcraft 2. He then tells me that if I am interested I should check out a site called Teamliquid.net. I go to the site and holy shit this is pretty cool. They have streams going on 24/7, there an entire liquipedia full of information on the game, the pro-scene is very easy to follow with articles written often, and best of all, the community is nice and mannered for the most part. Now I am a LoL player that is at least interested in SC2. After I get a little familiar with the site I see a thread titled SC2 vs LoL. I go into the thread and, to my displeasure, find there is a fair bit on TL who absolutely despise LoL. While I may not be hugely offended, I am at the very least put off. I may not be a progamer but I do think that LoL is a pretty damn good game. Each hateful comment I read leaves my mouth a little more sour, some of the time its pretty mindless bashing that is not logical at all. Luckily I find the LoL sub forum and go on my merry way watching/playing both LoL and SC2. While this exact example probably does not happen very often, the effect remains the same. Posts that needlessly hate on another game only serve to alienate people who play that game. If these people are interested in LoL, what makes them not like SC2? Sure the majority of them will probably not like it but there are some people who will and hateful posts completely push them off. I feel that a lot of people in the gaming community think that you can only like/play one game at a time. You are a SC2 player, or a LoL player, or a Dota player, when people traverse multiple games all of the time. Additionally just because I only like and play LoL right now does not mean that in the future I might like SC2 or BW as well. Another excellent example of this phenomenon is a series of posts between Ack1027 representing the BW community and UltraDavid representing the FGC. Full thread here. David is a well-known figure in the FGC and has some weight to throw around (read: he can promote BW if he wanted to) and Ack, as far as I know, is a relative TL veteran that plays BW. Ack argues that BW should not be compared to any other game because its bigger/harder/better. While he has some good points he presents his entire argument wrong, imo. He picks the wrong fight trying to go against David who has been around the scene for a while and knows his shit. David replies in the usual way bringing up how each game requires skill, different skill sets, etc. The argument isn't a huge deal until David replies that one of Ack's comments is going on twitter, presumably so that his followers can laugh at him. A don't even play BW and this was HUGE red flag that Ack should stop talking. He is making him, and more importantly the scene he represents, look like elitist assholes to a lot of the FGC. I feel that a lot of hte FGC and BW community could probably get along but this conversation only serves to divide the two even more. One post in particular really got me irked: On December 14 2011 Ack1027 wrote: Again, that's great that you prefer a particular game. But you clearly don't know jack about mine. Personally, I feel that fighting games are better spectator games than RTS. Presumably you feel the opposite, and that's great, there should be no hate or haughtiness on either side. But you'd do better to try to inform yourself first. I hope other people are willing to spend 10 minutes at least heh, cause I'm not gonna be interested in keeping this going if you're not willing to get outta your shell during the free time it takes to boil up some pasta. I'm admitting that I don't know about your game. And I don't hate your fighting game genre or think that somehow RTS is better. I'm just stating that objectively, factually, there's nothing that exists in the real world that shows that street fighter players are doing something more difficult, or even as close to as difficult as what the most top tier broodwar progamers do. That's it. It's not even to say hey my pros are better than your pros. It's just the way it is. If you want to listen to pop music, ok that's cool. But don't pretend like classical music isn't better in almost every way to any educated individual in regards to MUSIC. Broodwar as a professional sport in korea [ not esport ] is more important that any fighting game ever will be to any nation is what my argument is. It's the nature of the game itself.. + Show Spoiler + Broodwar as a professional sport in korea [ not esport ] is more important that any fighting game ever will be to any nation is what my argument is. It's the nature of the game itself. ..... are you kidding me? I did not realize Nostradamus browsed TL. Skies the limit man! In the future I want entire planets to be good a particular game. I realize this will not happen in my lifetime but come on. TLDR: hating ESPORTS is killing ESPORTS | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:10 red_ wrote: The general idea behind it is fine, and actually wasn't rejected(only by some people, that's going to happen anywhere), but you kept referring back to your original proposal as if attack animations will make or break the game's accessibility to a casual audience. Also running back to the LoL forum to bitch about it and try to form up your daisy chain is silly. You're also pretending that the LoL community has accepted proposed changed well, I mean the entire game is built inside the protective wall of 'anti-fun' from which Zileas(and thus the majority of the community who follows to his beat) refuses to budge. I'm going to allow myself to get baited temporarily and respond to this. So. The Riot Design Team intentionally uses philosophies such as Zileas' design principles because their target audience is everyone. Literally, they want as many people to be able to play LoL as possible. That means they need to be able to cater for all cultures, ages, etc. This also includes however, that people who may have never played any "proper" computer game before. (I use this term loosely to describe people who would not necessarily be "gamers" so to speak for lack of a better phrase. Don't read too much into it lol.) However, this means they need to accommodate the expected skillset that these people have. This means simplifying mechanics so they are intuitive as well as having strict design principles to prevent unnecessary artificial difficulty or barriers. It's important to note that intuitive not only means intuitive to play, but also intuitive to play against. For example, if you've never played against Lux before you can quickly figure out that those sparkly things she puts on you let her hurt you more. Ease of access is built into the entire aesthetic of LoL. Indeed, the art style is purposefully bright and cartoony so it's easy for people to see what's going on. When MF and Kennen both overlap their utls, you can immediately differentiate them. In other games (such as HoN), unless you already know the game it can be confusing to figure out what's actually even happening on your screen. That's not to say that they can't create more complicated champions or mechanics that appeal to "veterans" (here I use this more to denote people with lots of experience with games and either have pre-existing RTS-style mechanics, or the ability to pick them up quickly than a LoL veteran). Champions such as Orianna and Anivia really reward strong mechanics and foresight. However, that also means that it's necessary to tone down many aspects if they start becoming too clunky or complex. Wukong is an example where this happened, for better or for worse. Drawing a benchmark of what is acceptable or not is an arbitrary decision. Is it necessarily a good or a bad thing? Well, again, it comes down to the audience. LoL wants to be a game where anyone can pick it up and at least enjoy it, even if they're terrible. That's not a bad thing mind you. However, by having such a streamlined system (AP and AD is the most obvious form of streamlining) it also means it has to sacrifice elements somewhere else. A game such as DotA on the other hand is more than happy to have myriads of more complex interactions (Orb Effects anyone?). By doing so however, it also makes itself less open to newer players. Which is better? The answer is neither. Again, it all comes down to what you want your game to achieve. Does that make either game less suitable to be an E-Sport? Again, the answer is no. So long as there can be meaningful competitive play that people are willing to watch, anything can be an E-Sport. It's not like the changes in American Football compared to Rugby make either sport less meaningful competitively. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Yes, our game is very popular and it will only get more popular in 2012. Yes, our game will garner a lot of unwarranted hate. Having a thick skin comes with the territory. We enjoy LoL. That should suffice. Screw the detractors. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Also, Moonbear, you never got back to me about the 2-week patch cycle thing. Any word? | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:46 TheYango wrote: Also, Moonbear, you never got back to me about the 2-week patch cycle thing. Any word? K. Didn't get much since most of the people I normally speak to on leave/at events. But basically, Riot works on a 2-week schedule from tradition. As they expanded, they used it as a basis to formalise production and development for standardisation and consistency in deployment, oversight, etc. Everything from QA, Tech, Marketting, Art, etc. has sign-off dates they have to meet each cycle if they want something to be released. So, for example, even if a bug is fixed before a patch goes out, it won't be added if it misses the sign-off date unless it's considered to be critical. Mainly for QA and assurance purposes. Part of it is because ever since LoL expanded and they had a dedicated patch team, they like to check thing on all sorts of hardware and software configurations to make sure things work. It's also why patching is (generally) so smooth and quick these days. (Remember when they had to take the servers down for ages and then you had login queues?) As for the PBE I can't answer that sadly. That sort of strategic decision is something I don't know about. | ||
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bosiddon
308 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:24 Two_DoWn wrote: NEW TRAIN OF THOUGHT= How to improve as an ad carry. Cuz I suck. And its really complicated cuz not only do I need to learn what ad carrys beat what, but what supports beat what. good luck chaox and xpecial don't even understand this shit | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:11 bosiddon wrote: good luck chaox and xpecial don't even understand this shit And somewhere Metallica's Sad But True is playing. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
On March 13 2012 05:33 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: I'm going to allow myself to get baited temporarily and respond to this. So. However, this means they need to accommodate the expected skillset that these people have. This means simplifying mechanics so they are intuitive as well as having strict design principles to prevent unnecessary artificial difficulty or barriers. It's important to note that intuitive not only means intuitive to play, but also intuitive to play against. For example, if you've never played against Lux before you can quickly figure out that those sparkly things she puts on you let her hurt you more. Ease of access is built into the entire aesthetic of LoL. Indeed, the art style is purposefully bright and cartoony so it's easy for people to see what's going on. When MF and Kennen both overlap their utls, you can immediately differentiate them. In other games (such as HoN), unless you already know the game it can be confusing to figure out what's actually even happening on your screen. I just want to chip into this part and say this is originally that got me the slightest bit interested in the game and the streams. I can look at the screen not knowing a thing about the game and still differentiate easily at a glance champions from each other and most attacks or abilities. I tried glancing at HoN and Dota2 streams and I just can't say the same about them. As I have no inclination to get into another game that requires memorizing ~100 champs with different abilities and items to boot, it was quite the turn off to ever watching streams from those games. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:14 Two_DoWn wrote: And somewhere Metallica's Sad But True is playing. It's like classical mechanics. You're going from a two body problem (solo lane) to a four body problem (double) lane. You have no more analytical solutions. | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:18 BlueSpace wrote: It's like classical mechanics. You're going from a two body problem (solo lane) to a four body problem (double) lane. You have no more analytical solutions. Needs more rotating reference frames and spherical co-oridinates! | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:15 daemir wrote: I just want to chip into this part and say this is originally that got me the slightest bit interested in the game and the streams. I can look at the screen not knowing a thing about the game and still differentiate easily at a glance champions from each other and most attacks or abilities. I tried glancing at HoN and Dota2 streams and I just can't say the same about them. As I have no inclination to get into another game that requires memorizing ~100 champs with different abilities and items to boot, it was quite the turn off to ever watching streams from those games. I do think that LoL will be less accessible to newer players as more and more champions are released. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:26 Doctorbeat wrote: I do think that LoL will be less accessible to newer players as more and more champions are released. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. Although the whole process of buying champions is something the vast majority of players hate, it does help the game bring in new players. The fact that there's a free week rotation of diverse roles but with a small set of champions means that for the very new players, they aren't instantly bombarded with all ~90 champions the moment they start playing. They can learn the game with just the 10 champions that are free, which is quite simple. Then as they get better and more invested, they also get exposed to more and more champions. Although this process of acquiring champions and leveling up your summoner can be quite arduous for players who are already invested into the game, it's great for newer players as it lets them learn the game at their own pace. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
On March 13 2012 06:24 emperorchampion wrote: Needs more rotating reference frames and spherical co-oridinates! The jungles, in effect, rotates the Momentum of Lane vector away from the natural incidient, chaotically influencing the torque of trading (which creates the "back and forth effect") and ... yeah I got nothing. Bottom lane is complicated not only because there are numerous matchups, but the nature of AD carries (usually lack of early burst, thus loss of kill power, and a focus on farming) and the protective factor of supports tend to even out power curves. In other words, most matchups are relatively close by LoL standards, require more knowledge to properly exploit an advantage, and less of a lead is gained with success. Which is all, in turn, exacerbated by the sheer number of match ups. | ||
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