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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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On March 11 2012 02:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
The one thing that pisses me off about the community more than anything else is the idea that "only the people I think are supports are actually viable supports.
Look at the champ pool. Actually LOOK at them. Nearly every champion as a perfectly viable way to be played as a support champion. Max w on tryndamere, win every trade. Burst people down with Annie as soon as you hit 6. Hell, Nunu and Galio were both UNTHINKABLE on support until they showed up in tournaments.
The problem is that the vast majority of the community is terrible at this game. And I mean everyone below 2k is fucking terrible. And a good portion of the people above 2k are pretty bad as well. Its the truth. People either A) are incapable of seeing the possibilities that exist, or B) Incapable of actually playing out that possibility because they arent capable of adapting their playstyle.
So instead you end up with a community that is stuck in the "this is what I know, so it MUST be true" mentality.
Your making me want to play support Annie next game :p
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On March 11 2012 02:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 02:55 overt wrote:
Ali, Janna, Soraka, Sona, Leona, and even Galio can still offer a lot to a team without farm. Most other champions who could do okay in lane as a support are going to be pretty worthless without gold. I maintain that Soraka without gold is actually more useless than, say, Morgana or Orianna without gold.
I think that both of them are still good without gold and am a little surprised they don't see more love from people who play supports. I personally think that Orianna would be an amazing support both in lane and during mid/late game. But while I agree with Two_Down that there are tons of champions that can work as a support during lane phase they just feel so worthless outside of lane without farm.
I'm not saying there aren't undiscovered supports but I don't think there are more than like 5-6 viable supports that don't already get run. Not to mention the extreme ease of supports like Sona/Soraka that people just spam games as because they're super easy to play.
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On March 11 2012 02:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
The one thing that pisses me off about the community more than anything else is the idea that "only the people I think are supports are actually viable supports.
Look at the champ pool. Actually LOOK at them. Nearly every champion as a perfectly viable way to be played as a support champion. Max w on tryndamere, win every trade. Burst people down with Annie as soon as you hit 6. Hell, Nunu and Galio were both UNTHINKABLE on support until they showed up in tournaments.
The problem is that the vast majority of the community is terrible at this game. And I mean everyone below 2k is fucking terrible. And a good portion of the people above 2k are pretty bad as well. Its the truth. People either A) are incapable of seeing the possibilities that exist, or B) Incapable of actually playing out that possibility because they arent capable of adapting their playstyle.
So instead you end up with a community that is stuck in the "this is what I know, so it MUST be true" mentality.
One of the problems is that 'practice' is basically playing in soloQ, save for the top teams that scrim eachother(in which case there's just a time limit between tournies to really figuring out wildly new things). When people are afraid of losing Elo, they stick to what they know within reason; and normal games just aren't a good judge of anything in the majority of cases(sometimes normal can produce some decent games).
Rolling with your examples, if you really want to learn Tryndamere support(I would say it sounds terrible but that's the point =p) you have to accept that you're going to lose. A lot. Learning truly new things is not easy.
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Support Orianna can be deadly in bot lane, she really harass like a boss.
But I feel that without farm, she's really useless apart from her ult which will just disrupt. Also you waste her passive which is really sad :p
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On March 11 2012 03:00 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 02:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
The one thing that pisses me off about the community more than anything else is the idea that "only the people I think are supports are actually viable supports.
Look at the champ pool. Actually LOOK at them. Nearly every champion as a perfectly viable way to be played as a support champion. Max w on tryndamere, win every trade. Burst people down with Annie as soon as you hit 6. Hell, Nunu and Galio were both UNTHINKABLE on support until they showed up in tournaments.
The problem is that the vast majority of the community is terrible at this game. And I mean everyone below 2k is fucking terrible. And a good portion of the people above 2k are pretty bad as well. Its the truth. People either A) are incapable of seeing the possibilities that exist, or B) Incapable of actually playing out that possibility because they arent capable of adapting their playstyle.
So instead you end up with a community that is stuck in the "this is what I know, so it MUST be true" mentality. One of the problems is that 'practice' is basically playing in soloQ, save for the top teams that scrim eachother(in which case there's just a time limit between tournies to really figuring out wildly new things). When people are afraid of losing Elo, they stick to what they know within reason; and normal games just aren't a good judge of anything in the majority of cases(sometimes normal can produce some decent games). Rolling with your examples, if you really want to learn Tryndamere support(I would say it sounds terrible but that's the point =p) you have to accept that you're going to lose. A lot. Learning truly new things is not easy.
Ya, practicing is actually a bit of an issue cuz you really cant do it in solo q.
And you think support trynd sounds terrible- but he reduces ad by 80 at level 9. Try winning a drag fight without any ad.
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On March 11 2012 03:00 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 02:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
The one thing that pisses me off about the community more than anything else is the idea that "only the people I think are supports are actually viable supports.
Look at the champ pool. Actually LOOK at them. Nearly every champion as a perfectly viable way to be played as a support champion. Max w on tryndamere, win every trade. Burst people down with Annie as soon as you hit 6. Hell, Nunu and Galio were both UNTHINKABLE on support until they showed up in tournaments.
The problem is that the vast majority of the community is terrible at this game. And I mean everyone below 2k is fucking terrible. And a good portion of the people above 2k are pretty bad as well. Its the truth. People either A) are incapable of seeing the possibilities that exist, or B) Incapable of actually playing out that possibility because they arent capable of adapting their playstyle.
So instead you end up with a community that is stuck in the "this is what I know, so it MUST be true" mentality. One of the problems is that 'practice' is basically playing in soloQ, save for the top teams that scrim eachother(in which case there's just a time limit between tournies to really figuring out wildly new things). When people are afraid of losing Elo, they stick to what they know within reason; and normal games just aren't a good judge of anything in the majority of cases(sometimes normal can produce some decent games). Rolling with your examples, if you really want to learn Tryndamere support(I would say it sounds terrible but that's the point =p) you have to accept that you're going to lose. A lot. Learning truly new things is not easy.
I think a big part of it also has to do with it being a teamgame.
Taking the Tryndamere example your going to get screamed at, chewed out and reported every single game you do it regardless of if it works or not.
If it doesnt work your costs 4 other people a possible win and they wont be happy about it while for example in sc all you do is tank your own rating.
Now ofcourse there are normals as an option but it may be my low normal rating but they tend to be an instalock nightmare with no teamcomp in the slighest which eliminated a good basis for testing.
LoL doesnt really have a place to test wierd and strange champion uses without a team of friends to help you.
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On March 11 2012 03:01 Erasme wrote:
Support Orianna can be deadly in bot lane, she really harass like a boss.
But I feel that without farm, she's really useless apart from her ult which will just disrupt. Also you waste her passive which is really sad :p
Nah, her shield is still pretty useful and she has an AoE speed up/slow down and she can initiate fights. Orianna with no gold is probably just as useful as Sona, definitely more useful than Soraka, and probably more useful than Galio/Nunu.
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On March 11 2012 02:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 02:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
The one thing that pisses me off about the community more than anything else is the idea that "only the people I think are supports are actually viable supports.
Look at the champ pool. Actually LOOK at them. Nearly every champion as a perfectly viable way to be played as a support champion. Max w on tryndamere, win every trade. Burst people down with Annie as soon as you hit 6. Hell, Nunu and Galio were both UNTHINKABLE on support until they showed up in tournaments.
The problem is that the vast majority of the community is terrible at this game. And I mean everyone below 2k is fucking terrible. And a good portion of the people above 2k are pretty bad as well. Its the truth. People either A) are incapable of seeing the possibilities that exist, or B) Incapable of actually playing out that possibility because they arent capable of adapting their playstyle.
So instead you end up with a community that is stuck in the "this is what I know, so it MUST be true" mentality. Your making me want to play support Annie next game :p
i have played some support annie in my day and it's better than you might think
basically the same as taric, but your stun is on a longer CD and deals a lot more damage. level 6 is a guaranteed kill if your jungler gets involved. later in the game you follow your team with a stun stored up and function as a sona ult + whatever AP you've managed to scrape together.
it's not that great and would be a lot more viable if pyromania only required 4 charges or something, but you can definitely make it work.
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Orianna support if the shit. +30 Arm/MRes on a ball that you can relocate with a spammable shield, a sizable speed boost/reduc, a displacement ult... and you don't even need that much AP to get her passive to her from the 3rd attack onward.
I remember grabbing lucky pick, Aegis and some CDR on an Orianna support with tank runes, I had like 2300 hp with 150 armor/mr when the ball was on me and I would spam 300+ hp shields on my bruisers before speeding them up in the enemy team. 
Her Q also has a respectable base damage for a spammable AoE skill, and the ball allows her to check bushes and stuff like that.
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..Why don't you just play ap orianna?
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On March 11 2012 03:14 Alaric wrote:Orianna support if the shit. +30 Arm/MRes on a ball that you can relocate with a spammable shield, a sizable speed boost/reduc, a displacement ult... and you don't even need that much AP to get her passive to her from the 3rd attack onward. I remember grabbing lucky pick, Aegis and some CDR on an Orianna support with tank runes, I had like 2300 hp with 150 armor/mr when the ball was on me and I would spam 300+ hp shields on my bruisers before speeding them up in the enemy team. Her Q also has a respectable base damage for a spammable AoE skill, and the ball allows her to check bushes and stuff like that.
Support Ori also has stupidly strong brush control in bot lane. You don't need to ward brush, just stand in your brush and keep the ball in the other brush. Have vision of both brushes for the entire laning phase. Not to mention how safe it is to ward river as her because you can check where you're going to go with ball and the fact that with your W and R you can help junglers gank incredibly well.
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Support anivia is actually surprisingly okay. Stun, aoe slow and damage for baron, wall and thanks to egg you're kinda beefy.
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On March 11 2012 03:29 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
Support anivia is actually surprisingly okay. Stun, aoe slow and damage for baron, wall and thanks to egg you're kinda beefy.
You're also oom after the first trade in lane. A lot of these ideas really are just not good, sometimes it's not about the bad practice environment of soloQ =p
What's this east vs west thing on the IPL stream? http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/IGNProLeague_LoL
Seems odd to have an 'all-star' game the same weekend as a major LAN tourney... most the all-stars aren't there =x
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On March 11 2012 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
..Why don't you just play ap orianna?
Because sometimes people instalock in normals and type "me mid", etc. for all positions and since I'm in the mood for trying/practicing champs and I'm kinda satisfied of my Janna I decide to test (I bought Lux and Orianna recently, so I run them as supports in normals whenever I can't practice them mid). Which makes me think that I haven't played Master Yi yet.
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On March 11 2012 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
..Why don't you just play ap orianna?
You should instead be comparing her to supports rather than mids, same deal as kennen
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On March 11 2012 02:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 02:55 overt wrote:
Ali, Janna, Soraka, Sona, Leona, and even Galio can still offer a lot to a team without farm. Most other champions who could do okay in lane as a support are going to be pretty worthless without gold. I maintain that Soraka without gold is actually more useless than, say, Morgana or Orianna without gold.
That Armor buff is awesome. Against AD assassins that is. Soraka definitely is a strong one in the without-farm competition.
Support Annie has the problem that she runs oom before getting a stun up unless she gets to lasthit. And if she can't get stuns up a lot, she's pretty damn weak before 6.
Take support Cass instead. Ridiculous. High base damage and good range on all skills, strong early game, free brush checking, insane ultimate.
Why would you take Cass as support though? Well, because you have say Ryze mid and Irelia top already, and for some reason your enemies didn't feel like picking/banning Cass. Wouldn't it be a waste not to pick her?
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On March 11 2012 03:57 Shikyo wrote:You should instead be comparing her to supports rather than mids, same deal as kennen
I just played a ranked game against AP orianna who went like 17/3, she's really strong.
I mean, I don't want to hate on trying unconventional supports (support xin/wukong btw is epic good) but generally whenever you start playing them it feels like they're all decent until you play "real" supports and realize how brokenly OP they are and then you stop trying.
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lol, been playing with friends who play support morg, and support orianna more than playing ap mid.
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On March 11 2012 04:13 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 03:57 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
..Why don't you just play ap orianna? You should instead be comparing her to supports rather than mids, same deal as kennen I just played a ranked game against AP orianna who went like 17/3, she's really strong. I mean, I don't want to hate on trying unconventional supports (support xin/wukong btw is epic good) but generally whenever you start playing them it feels like they're all decent until you play "real" supports and realize how brokenly OP they are and then you stop trying.
Support Ori will be more appreciated if AP Ori becomes no longer viable. When AP Alistar was viable he was like the most broken AP in the game. I remember jiji, who played a really sick AP Alistar, commented that AP Alistar is more broken than Orianna and this was like a month after her release so it was before all of her nerfs.
Although I guess this whole thought process falls apart since people were already running Alistar as a support before Shushei demonstrated how good he was in a solo lane as an AP carry. On second thought, maybe Alistar is just straight up good. I think we've seen him in pro level play as an AP carry, support, jungler, and even roamer back when roaming was common in NA.
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AP janna is also pretty good. Supports are just op. AP soraka was killed when they nerfed AP ratios, kinda same with sona.
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EPT
