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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
United States47024 Posts
On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many
This.
Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak.
As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions).
Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information.
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So since Poppy is getting brought up a bit, what do you guys build her as? When I used to play her frequently I went full AP, Gunblade, Sorc boots, Deathcap. Most of the things I have seen recently though have been AS. Does she really do that much more damage that way? AP Poppy just melts people instantly.
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On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information.
Well, understanding the "meta" and then extrapolating that to finding champs that are strong in those interactions is one way to find FOTM, but I definitely think champion->"meta" works just as well. In the process you learn things about interactions and how gameplay works. It doesnt HAVE to be one way or the other.
In fact, I think the nature of solo q and tournament play pushes in the champ->how they fit into teamcomps direction far harder than how can we find champs to fit the way we want to play. Tourney players find champs they are good at and feel strong with, then try to work them into teams and play develops from there.
Shyvana is a perfect example. I doubt very much M5 spent a bunch of time theorycrafting jungles that would let them invade. I am willing to bet Diamondz/whoever their top lane is liked playing shyvana, had success with her, then started to pick her in scrims. From there the "look how easily we can control the map and buffs" gameplay developed.
The 2 champs I think have potential to be FOTM are perfect examples of this dichotomy as well.
I think Annie has the potential to be very strong in the current "meta" because of her kit and what you want a mid to do.
Talon, on the other hand, I feel is a strong character that can be selected then worked into strategies.
But to say people SHOULDNT be doing one thing when that one thing is pretty much HOW top players come up with this shit is just wrong.
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I forgot yi as a champion I feel is underrated.
I also really like AD sion and feel he's underplayed.
Monkey is really strong. The AD scaling on his ult is crazy.
I think AP trist is stronger than I expected but she's still borderline trollish to me.
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On February 16 2012 09:36 Magus wrote:
So since Poppy is getting brought up a bit, what do you guys build her as? When I used to play her frequently I went full AP, Gunblade, Sorc boots, Deathcap. Most of the things I have seen recently though have been AS. Does she really do that much more damage that way? AP Poppy just melts people instantly.
I used to be a staunch supporter of AP poppy, but with only a triforce she still does insane damage with her Q to the people she needs to hurt, and you can keep the damage going without having to worry about flawless positioning and cooldowns. Although I admit it's satisfying slamming someone into a wall for half their hp and then killing them with one devastating blow 
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On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information.
I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time.
Something like this
x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ.
...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential)
................................................... ----------------------------------Graves-----------------------------
. .......................................----------------------------------Ashe---------------------------
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On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe---------------------------
The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 16 2012 09:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Well, understanding the "meta" and then extrapolating that to finding champs that are strong in those interactions is one way to find FOTM, but I definitely think champion->"meta" works just as well. In the process you learn things about interactions and how gameplay works. It doesnt HAVE to be one way or the other.
In fact, I think the nature of solo q and tournament play pushes in the champ->how they fit into teamcomps direction far harder than how can we find champs to fit the way we want to play. Tourney players find champs they are good at and feel strong with, then try to work them into teams and play develops from there.
Shyvana is a perfect example. I doubt very much M5 spent a bunch of time theorycrafting jungles that would let them invade. I am willing to bet Diamondz/whoever their top lane is liked playing shyvana, had success with her, then started to pick her in scrims. From there the "look how easily we can control the map and buffs" gameplay developed.
The 2 champs I think have potential to be FOTM are perfect examples of this dichotomy as well.
I think Annie has the potential to be very strong in the current "meta" because of her kit and what you want a mid to do.
Talon, on the other hand, I feel is a strong character that can be selected then worked into strategies.
But to say people SHOULDNT be doing one thing when that one thing is pretty much HOW top players come up with this shit is just wrong.
I don't mean to say that top players should stop doing what they're doing. They have the scrimming environment to properly practice and play out things in the draft. They can approach things from an experimental mentality of "X feels strong--lets see how she performs with Y and Z teams" because they have the proper environment to actually experiment with how things play out against other teams.
What I'm saying is that the other 99% of the community saying "X is going to be the next FotM" is essentially wasting their time. The theoretical approach is the only sensible approach for 99% of the player-base because without proper experimentation available, saying "X is going to be FotM" is essentially plain guess-work. And you can hardly say that random middle-Elo solo queue games count as any sort of proper experimentation.
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On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing.
I am not saying that x is unviable i am saying some champs are better pretty much all the time. As for twitch I have not played him in forever. Predicting fotms is pointless, its like predicting fotm builds in SC2.
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On February 16 2012 09:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:39 Two_DoWn wrote:
Well, understanding the "meta" and then extrapolating that to finding champs that are strong in those interactions is one way to find FOTM, but I definitely think champion->"meta" works just as well. In the process you learn things about interactions and how gameplay works. It doesnt HAVE to be one way or the other.
In fact, I think the nature of solo q and tournament play pushes in the champ->how they fit into teamcomps direction far harder than how can we find champs to fit the way we want to play. Tourney players find champs they are good at and feel strong with, then try to work them into teams and play develops from there.
Shyvana is a perfect example. I doubt very much M5 spent a bunch of time theorycrafting jungles that would let them invade. I am willing to bet Diamondz/whoever their top lane is liked playing shyvana, had success with her, then started to pick her in scrims. From there the "look how easily we can control the map and buffs" gameplay developed.
The 2 champs I think have potential to be FOTM are perfect examples of this dichotomy as well.
I think Annie has the potential to be very strong in the current "meta" because of her kit and what you want a mid to do.
Talon, on the other hand, I feel is a strong character that can be selected then worked into strategies.
But to say people SHOULDNT be doing one thing when that one thing is pretty much HOW top players come up with this shit is just wrong. I don't mean to say that top players should stop doing what they're doing. They have the scrimming environment to properly practice and play out things in the draft. They can approach things from an experimental methodology because they have the proper environment to actually experiment with how things play out against other teams. What I'm saying is that the other 99% of the community saying "X is going to be the next FotM" is essentially wasting their time. The theoretical approach is the only sensible approach for 99% of the player-base because without proper experimentation available, saying "X is going to be FotM" is essentially plain guess-work.
It aint guesswork when I'm right 100% of the time (Shyv, Kennen, Morg).
But seriously, you should NOT limit this to top players only. Provided my understanding of your use of 99% of players is correct in that you are saying that only tourney players can champcraft and not that the ACTUAL 99% of players (which goes down to like 1600) I think you limit yourself a LOT.
I didnt need to have a scrim schedule with TSM and CLG to figure out that Shyv was stupidly strong. Same with Yorick or Kennen. After you clear a certain threshold, a strong champ is a strong champ. And my understanding of the game is good enough to be able to actually think rationally about whether the champ I find strong has potential to be FOTM.
On February 16 2012 09:50 Eppa! wrote:
I am not saying that x is unviable i am saying some champs are better pretty much all the time. As for twitch I have not played him in forever. Predicting fotms is pointless, its like predicting fotm builds in SC2.
No, that isnt what you are saying. What you ARE saying is that some champs are easier to fit into a wider variety of teamcomps.
If you go by your definition, Kog'maw at his peak was a shitty champion cuz the only comp you could run was protect the kog. Yet he was the single strongest ad carry in the game for a decent period.
And predicting FOTM isnt pointless because it is a very good exercise in extrapolating your own experiences and knowledge to the general public. For someone like Yiruru, Smash, Teut, hell, even myself, it isnt really all that hard. We play, and UNDERSTAND the game at a level where we can draw valid conclusions about a champion's power level.
Plus its fun.
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On February 16 2012 08:28 Two_DoWn wrote:
Oh, and since I'm actually thinking about something on the general topic- here are my contenders for the next FOTM (having correctly called Morg, Kennen, and Shyv in the past):
Talon: Went from must ban to never picked after these changes: 15 mana on W, 15 seconds on ult, and going to an actual NORMAL hp/mp5 rate. No damage changes whatsoever. Classic case of nerfs and a jump off the bandwagon. With the increasing likelyhood of swapping around lanes, I could VERY easily see Talon return to the forefront on a team that sends a tanky mage top or bot.
Annie: I dont think she will ever return to being considered op, but her map control is incredible early thanks to an absurd aoe burst stun. I honestly cant think about a better character to bring along for buff incursions than a stunbers ready annie. Once people figure out her matchups (I think this is a fault of her falling out of favor just as a bunch of new mages came into play) she will go back to being a very common pick.
I REALLY hope you're wrong about Annie. I hate facing that burst.
Talon is an interesting call. He was pretty popular on his release until he got nerfed as you mentioned.
I think Morde will become fotm soon. He still seems pretty strong. Not as strong as he was before his nerf, but still pretty decent.
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On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing.
You guys remember back int he day when his ultimate had unlimited fires for like 15 seconds?
Ah the good ole days
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I still consider Gangplank is the only hero that is above every others. His kit makes him just too easy to play and too stable against any kind of comp - not necessarily imba, just always good.
Also I bought Nautilus but I will probably never play him again : I hate him, he is just too freaking slow.
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Holy shit communcation is such a huge deal in this game. Played as a premade for the first time today, a lvl 20 IRL friend of mine and two friends I used to do some srs lvl 39 twinking in WoW with. One of them is okayish, the other two are garbage. It's such a difference coming from 1000+ games of just pinging and typing to actually being able to talk during a teamfight. Maybe it was because I played assholes like Xin and Lee to snowball their lanes, but they all won them in a dominating fashion even though their opponents were all considerably better in terms of being able to last hit properly, have map awareness etc. Once teamfights came, though, it just made a difference we could instagib the person we agreed to kill, while they were scattering their damage on our whole team.
TL;DR:
Communication is great, finals are over, I need a team. Huehue.
On February 16 2012 09:56 WhiteDog wrote:
I still consider Gangplank is the only hero that is above every others. His kit makes him just too easy to play and too stable against any kind of comp - not necessarily imba, just always good.
Also I bought Nautilus but I will probably never play him again : I hate him, he is just too freaking slow.
None of the champions are actually HARD to play. Hard to play at full potential, yeah, but not exactly hard to play successfully. I don't see any reason why GP should be considered better than other champs. He's good, but not neccessarily better than others.
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On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing.
twitch has the highest dmg potential of any ad carry because he hits multiple targets, not cause of true damage
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On February 16 2012 10:04 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing. twitch has the highest dmg potential of any ad carry because he hits multiple targets, not cause of true damage
Yar, that be true as well.
Its just Dlift was specifically referencing his true damage at the time, so maybe he was arguing that single target he is the best as well or something. I dun remember.
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On February 16 2012 09:36 Magus wrote:
So since Poppy is getting brought up a bit, what do you guys build her as? When I used to play her frequently I went full AP, Gunblade, Sorc boots, Deathcap. Most of the things I have seen recently though have been AS. Does she really do that much more damage that way? AP Poppy just melts people instantly.
I tried it for a while but I feel AP poppy is strictly worse than AD. You give up a whole lot of mid game power and farming ability in order to kill their carry slighty faster. If you don't get kills, then it just takes forever to farm up a lichbane +enough AP to make it worthwhile. Just the way I see it. AP probably carries harder, but I don't like it personally.
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On February 16 2012 10:04 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing. twitch has the highest dmg potential of any ad carry because he hits multiple targets, not cause of true damage
AD steroid, AS steroid, hits multiple targets.
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On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information.
sounds all good and everything but then again, eve is still crap.
if you want to get down to it, strength in any game is simply the chance of you have a favorable match up vs the chance of having a bad match up. a strong character 'in general' has more strong match ups than weak match ups and/or has strong match ups against other strong champions. this is the essence of the counter pick. unless a champion has 0 good match ups, its true, it is still 'strong' as a niche counterpick, but when your strong match ups as so few and far between, or so predictable, that a simple lane swap will solve all the other teams issues you are a garbage champion.
theres almost no situation where you can just run eve and not have her not only counter picked out of the game, but counter picked at no loss to the other team.
On February 16 2012 10:08 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 10:04 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 09:46 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 16 2012 09:42 Eppa! wrote:On February 16 2012 09:29 TheYango wrote:On February 16 2012 08:18 Navi wrote:
every1 in this game is viable
every kit is unique and has strong points and weak points - its just figuring when and how to use the strengths and to minimize the weaknesses that escapes people for some of the "weaker" champions escapes many This. Ultimately, what dictates what people feel is strong is what happens to be popular at the moment. Champions that are strong with or against the prevailing strategy tend to be viewed as strong, and those that do not interact well with the prevailing strategies tend to be viewed as weak. As I've said ages ago, part of this is simply because the vast majority of the LoL population (really anyone who's outside the top teams who scrim against one another) simply does not have proper practice playing the draft. People copy how the "popular" teams are picked without thoroughly understanding the nuances of how EVERY champion fits into the draft. In solo queue people just pick what appears strong without actually understanding WHY those champions currently appear or what situations make them strong (often oblivious to unsuitable situations for those champions). Strictly speaking, what people shouldn't be trying to do is "predict what the next FotM" is going to be at the champion level, but seeking to better understand the champion-champion interactions as a whole--to better understand overall what champions work well together, what team-comps fit what champions, how different team-comps perform against one another, etc. How to pick with/against FotMs simply follows naturally from that information. I disagree, there are stronger and weaker champions, some are just terrible no matter how you put them out unless its cheesy picks. Eve, Kat, Twitch are all really weak when opponents play well. Champions are like spectrums of power where they are useful and not, but some are better when at perfect conditions and better than opposing champ and worst possible position at the same time. Something like this x axel is power. From worst possible to best possible in team comp vs team comp. A team that theoretically was shit for graves and super duper awesom for twitch, twitch would be the better champ. ...(Worst)-----------------------Twitch---------------------(Max potential) ................................................... ----------------------------------Graves----------------------------- . .......................................----------------------------------Ashe--------------------------- The only champion in the game that is unviable is Eve, and it is only because her base stats are such shit. Twitch max potential is actually equal to or HIGHER (if you believe Dlift) than any other ad carry because of his true damage. Seriously, fed twitch is a scary thing. twitch has the highest dmg potential of any ad carry because he hits multiple targets, not cause of true damage AD steroid, AS steroid, hits multiple targets.
highest damage potential against retards. he is a squishy with the lowest ranged ad range in the game, he is most vulnerable to just being turned on with 0 escapes. the worst response to 'twitch out of fucking nowhere' is to run, the best is to just turn around and kill him
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Also, Twitch being my main, his true damage is a great bonus and an enormous benefit to him at all levels (Especially level 1) his true damage scales with levels and actually gets weaker if you're hitting the same target more than 6 times at greater than 1.0 attack speed. Corki's true damage scales with his AD/crits.
His ultimate being able to hit all 5 members of an opposing team for 7x300-900 damage? That is why he is viable, even if that situation is quite unlikely.
After great experimentation, if skill levels are equal, he is not viable against a support/poke lane. Which is the current meta. Try him top lane against a Xin, Cho'Gath, even Renekton or Riven. Maybe even GP now that his mana is a bit more costly.
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EPT
