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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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The tribunal isn't what bans players. Riot employees ban players. The tribunal just helps use the players to sort out some of the cases (gets rid of all the cases where the player is innocent) so it makes the employee's job easier.
Employee's are told to be "100% sure of the ban" before banning someone. (all games with ban systems do this) They do not have to ban. A lot of times they even can just give warnings. That's why Riot likes to say they are 100% sure of all their cases were correct. Obviously, that isn't true. People make mistakes. It's why NO system is perfect. There will always be one outlying case where someone got banned when they should not have been. It's these fringe cases that are used as the basis of arguments against such systems. That doesn't make said person's argument right at all. It just means they're using a fringe case to judge the entire system.
Stop living in a fantasy land, start living in reality please.
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On February 16 2012 04:36 Shikyo wrote:
Well, I value 1 wrongful ban at about 1000 correct bans and would rather have 10 correct ones and 0 incorrect ones instead.
Like death penalty's really cool until you get the wrong guy. I don't even see any reason to ban anyone for something other than like AFKing, even summoners code says to ignore ragers
About Nautilus: full AP imo but everyone else disagrees.
About new Shen: I still don't think he's that strong and is counterable in lane. Not even as tough as Yorick in lane imo. BTW Nunu rapes Shen top sideways
Shen: I honestly don't think there's anyone as strong as Yorick in lane. That's almost a bad comparison, it's like comparing anyone's jungle speed to like, Shyvana. Yorick will just poke and sustain to death any person who comes top who's name isn't Mordekaiser.
Nunu just doesn't scale as well. You want someone top that can hold the lane then come out and be good. Nunu can hold and what not, but he's not doing much past the mid game point, like old Shen was. Now Shen can go even or worse with Nunu and then still come out and carry teams.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
I think punishments for leaving and AFK needs to be a bit more severe because at the moment there is far too many of those.
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 04:42 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:36 Shikyo wrote:
Well, I value 1 wrongful ban at about 1000 correct bans and would rather have 10 correct ones and 0 incorrect ones instead.
Like death penalty's really cool until you get the wrong guy. I don't even see any reason to ban anyone for something other than like AFKing, even summoners code says to ignore ragers
About Nautilus: full AP imo but everyone else disagrees.
About new Shen: I still don't think he's that strong and is counterable in lane. Not even as tough as Yorick in lane imo. BTW Nunu rapes Shen top sideways Death penalty is the same as not playing LoL for 1-3 days, kk.
Principle's the same? In that I rather have less correct cases than some incorrect? Truth still remains that they don't have enough data. Also those riot employees are pretty hardworking as according to their data they've banned like 500.000 people already! (Nope I don't believe the half-year old data that 15mil summoners have played the game over time and 1.4mil log in every day, those stats are completely unrealistic)
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TSM loses. Some poor communication lets them lose their early game lead. Now some derping and letting CLG taking their inhib tower and inhib uncontested. Wow TOO raging really hard, briefly though. They weren't that effective at split pushing because either TSM got caught too much or Shen didn't ult early enough.
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On February 16 2012 04:28 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:25 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 04:21 Shikyo wrote:On February 16 2012 04:18 BlackMagister wrote:
I've never had 40 cases appear in the report for one person. At most it's around 7. Playing poorly isn't a good enough reason for being banned even though I think there is an option for reporting it. There was a reddit thread which had compiled red posts about tribunal saying trying out new things isn't bannable its more about your attitude and I'm sure that applies to doing poorly too. If there is nothing really bad in the chat log and the person just has a bad score than I won't punish the player. Yeah exactly, so you only need to be reported in 7 games .. And again, it doesn't matter what reds say, I know everything about it have read the rules multiple times, I'm more interested in like, the reality. i'm genuinely curious as to what your basis for your reality is. Unless you work @ riot or know ppl who work @ riot and can get proper answers from people who actually know how tribunal works, then you can't go around assuming that the worst case scenario is something to be feared and expected (to an extent). I can get behind skepticism towards tribunal's efficacy, but you're blatanly asserting that tribunal isn't working and I really want to know if you have anything to back it up outside of intuitive logic. Threads I've read on forums mostly and also logic, as Tribunal has incomplete information and statistics of 94% punish ratio. Even in this thread there's been people who have been banned who probably shouldn't have been. Pretty simple.
because people who have been banned don't tend to spin their case in their favor and omit (either intentionally or not) details that would incriminate them. Obviously there are exceptions to this (you yourself just said you deserved your bans wholeheartedly and why), but I have no intention of taking most ppl's ban complaints seriously, and even if their complaint is legitimate, then they can always just go to customer support to appeal their case.
Also, you mentioned earlier that riot only having access to chat logs was an issue. Because all of the game information is handled serverside I would actually expect them to have access to a TON of information, hell they know how many times triforce was bought, so, referring to guitar's example, I would actually fully expect them to easily be able to check if you bought manamune on lee sin.
Ofc, I don't actually know how tribunal works either, and I don't know if they can pull up those stats from games, and I fully support questioning whether the system works (altho on this forum I don't really kno if it will go anywhere since we have limited access to riot personnel), but I think you could do it with a little less assumptions. I dunno, i guess it's maybe just because you're more cynical than me.
edit: tl:dr, I'm opposed to conclusions based on incomplete information
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It felt like TSM was really far ahead in that scrim until about the time they motioned for baron and lost mid. What happened?
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I'm ready to bet 10$ that the next scrim wont start because TSM will argue too hard :>
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 04:46 BlackMagister wrote:
TSM loses. Some poor communication lets them lose their early game lead. Now some derping and letting CLG taking their inhib tower and inhib uncontested. Wow TOO raging really hard, briefly though. They weren't that effective at split pushing because either TSM got caught too much or Shen didn't ult early enough.
I think that TOO fail at botlane was pretty crucial. They had a guaranteed kill on the Kog if TOO just waits until Kog flashes(which it looked like was his plan the entire time) and instead he ults and then Kog flashes that and lives. If he had waited and then ulted Kog back after he uses flash they probably had a guaranteed kill there and it could have gotten them both a turret and the dragon and the game could have been very different without that small, very stupid mistake
On February 16 2012 04:50 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:45 Shikyo wrote:On February 16 2012 04:42 JackDino wrote:On February 16 2012 04:36 Shikyo wrote:
Well, I value 1 wrongful ban at about 1000 correct bans and would rather have 10 correct ones and 0 incorrect ones instead.
Like death penalty's really cool until you get the wrong guy. I don't even see any reason to ban anyone for something other than like AFKing, even summoners code says to ignore ragers
About Nautilus: full AP imo but everyone else disagrees.
About new Shen: I still don't think he's that strong and is counterable in lane. Not even as tough as Yorick in lane imo. BTW Nunu rapes Shen top sideways Death penalty is the same as not playing LoL for 1-3 days, kk. Principle's the same? In that I rather have less correct cases than some incorrect? Truth still remains that they don't have enough data. Also those riot employees are pretty hardworking as according to their data they've banned like 500.000 people already! (Nope I don't believe the half-year old data that 15mil summoners have played the game over time and 1.4mil log in every day, those stats are completely unrealistic) lol you sounds like those conspiracy theorist dudes.
Well that's interesting... I still don't think it's too realistic that 15mil accounts have been created(this means multi accs too right?) and 1.4mil people log in daily. 1/10th of the game's population logging in just isn't realistic at all o_o But yeah maybe I'm hating on tribunal a little bit too much(but not much)
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On February 16 2012 04:45 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:42 JackDino wrote:On February 16 2012 04:36 Shikyo wrote:
Well, I value 1 wrongful ban at about 1000 correct bans and would rather have 10 correct ones and 0 incorrect ones instead.
Like death penalty's really cool until you get the wrong guy. I don't even see any reason to ban anyone for something other than like AFKing, even summoners code says to ignore ragers
About Nautilus: full AP imo but everyone else disagrees.
About new Shen: I still don't think he's that strong and is counterable in lane. Not even as tough as Yorick in lane imo. BTW Nunu rapes Shen top sideways Death penalty is the same as not playing LoL for 1-3 days, kk. Principle's the same? In that I rather have less correct cases than some incorrect? Truth still remains that they don't have enough data. Also those riot employees are pretty hardworking as according to their data they've banned like 500.000 people already! (Nope I don't believe the half-year old data that 15mil summoners have played the game over time and 1.4mil log in every day, those stats are completely unrealistic)
lol you sounds like those conspiracy theorist dudes.
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On February 16 2012 04:50 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:46 BlackMagister wrote:
TSM loses. Some poor communication lets them lose their early game lead. Now some derping and letting CLG taking their inhib tower and inhib uncontested. Wow TOO raging really hard, briefly though. They weren't that effective at split pushing because either TSM got caught too much or Shen didn't ult early enough. I think that TOO fail at botlane was pretty crucial. They had a guaranteed kill on the Kog if TOO just waits until Kog flashes(which it looked like was his plan the entire time) and instead he ults and then Kog flashes that and lives. If he had waited and then ulted Kog back after he uses flash they probably had a guaranteed kill there and it could have gotten them both a turret and the dragon and the game could have been very different without that small, very stupid mistake
I agree that was a mistake but all that meant was they didn't push an advantage. They were already sitting on an early game lead. It just seemed to get away from them, not sure why.
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On February 16 2012 04:18 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:18 bmn wrote:
According to the Tribunal rules, no he should not be banned. Man your skull must be really thick. If you go to a new job and your boss says he'll pay you 20.000$ a month, but as you work he ends up paying nothing, do you praise him for being extremely generous for paying you 20k a month?
No, obviously not. But just because someone somewhere once told me they didn't get paid for work, I don't assume that every job I'm being offered is actually a scam.
Shit happens, people make mistakes, life isn't always fair. It seems that neither of us actually has any meaningful data to add to the conversation at this point, just very different opinions on how common it is for people to be banned for playing badly. So I'll just leave it at that.
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On February 16 2012 04:50 Shikyo wrote:
1/10th of the game's population logging in just isn't realistic at all o_o But yeah maybe I'm hating on tribunal a little bit too much(but not much)
Why is that not realistic? Too high or too low?
Thats about what I would estimate if asked.
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Shikyo is just whining about the tribunal for no reason and saying he doesn't believe riot, and somehow knows that riot is an evil corporation that takes your money and then has it's huge playerbase ban you for them.
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Tribunal does not directly ban anyone, it just filters the reports to give Riot a more manageable number of cases to look at decide if they need to be banned. It saves Riot the time of having to individually look at every case, instead they only have to look at the cases where a large sample of people have already reviewed and decided that those cases require consideration for bans.
It's actually quite elegant, it gives community members a feeling of power over griefers, while Riot retains what is essentially the same banning process but with a filtering system that doesn't require it's employees to weed out the fringe cases saving them man-hours and giving players a way to feel like they made a difference. Arguing against tribunal is silly, you're basically arguing against a filtering system. Whether or not someone gets banned still depends on a Rioter looking at the reports and games and chat logs and deciding whether or not a ban is warranted. This is the same as it has always been. In this game and most other games with a ban system.
At worst, Tribunal is able to save some people from even having to be looked at by a rioter, but there are very, very few cases where someone who does not deserve a ban getting one.
Tribunal just makes the abuse cases easier to identify for Rioters.
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On February 16 2012 04:18 JackDino wrote:
I've had multiple games where I went like 0/6/0(for some reason I got no assists) and 0/6/2 and shit, even gotten report threats in those games,never been banned. If you got banned you've prolly done something to deserve it, no point crying, just mind your attitude.
How are you supposed to change your attitude when you don't know what is the reason of your ban ?
Seriously, the way Riot handle bans is just ridiculous, I really don't understand why I got banned and will never know why. I'll continue to play like I did before and what will have changed ? I'll have played DotA2 instead of LoL for 3 days.
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On February 16 2012 05:02 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 04:18 JackDino wrote:
I've had multiple games where I went like 0/6/0(for some reason I got no assists) and 0/6/2 and shit, even gotten report threats in those games,never been banned. If you got banned you've prolly done something to deserve it, no point crying, just mind your attitude. How are you supposed to change your attitude when you don't know what is the reason of your ban ? Seriously, the way Riot handle bans is just ridiculous, I really don't understand why I got banned and will never know why. I'll continue to play like I did before and what will have changed ? I'll have played DotA2 instead of LoL for 3 days.
can you not email customer support and ask?
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 05:00 JackDino wrote:
Shikyo is just whining about the tribunal for no reason and saying he doesn't believe riot, and somehow knows that riot is an evil corporation that takes your money and then has it's huge playerbase ban you for them.
Yeah actually I disagree pretty heavily with a ton of stuff they do <_< And I also hate the fact that I can't troll normals with AP MF or solo top twitch without fear of getting banned(Although the past 2 games with solo top twitch I carried rly hard)
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"Next time we just book one scrim. They're not capable of playing more" - Wickd
Seriously, TSM.
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EPT
