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[Patch 1.0.0.134: Nautilus] General Discussion - Page 34

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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.

Thanks. Happy Gaming.
Tezzick
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada187 Posts
February 15 2012 20:09 GMT
#661
On February 16 2012 05:05 dooraven wrote:
"Next time we just book one scrim. They're not capable of playing more" - Wickd

Seriously, TSM.

"They need a babysitter in the TSM house" - Snoopeh
Lol'd real hard.
"I'm a monster" - Buster
Chiharu Harukaze
Profile Joined September 2011
12112 Posts
February 15 2012 20:12 GMT
#662
Just a quick word from me. Riot is aware of the problem with false positives. Currently there is a filter that tries to tell when a report is 'valid' or not before being sent to the Tribunal. This should filter out all the reports where people are falsely accused of feeding or bad playing, but just had a bad day. Obviously, it's not perfect atm but they're working on it. They're also currently hiring PhD level Statisticians and Data Analytics so if you know anyone who fits that and is looking for a job, do tell them about it! Also, remember that there's always the final fail-safe of an actual Rioter to audit the Tribunal. Think of the Tribunal as a crowd sourced engine that filter that examines reports to be sent to a Rioter's Inbox. Kind of. On a separate note, I've heard there have been several fringe cases that have come up in internal discussions regarding improving the system, but the consensus was that these cases were still temp ban worthy, although marginally so.

Re giving reasons for bans: It's not efficient to do so. The people hours required to personalise each punishment is incredibly disproportionate compared to the effect it would have. That is to say, people generally don't care, or are insistent on contesting the reason given. I've handled enough complaints on the Help & Support Boards to get a general idea. Pendragon has a few amusing stories too, including the time when he had to explain to someone by phone that graphical death threats were not an appropriate method of constructive criticism... Also, explicitly stating what is and is not ban-worthy leads to people being pedantic about their bans and playing with semantics, dancing around the bigger issue.
It's like, "Is the Federation's Mobile Suit some kind of monster?"
BlackMagister
Profile Joined October 2008
United States5834 Posts
February 15 2012 20:12 GMT
#663
They actually do. Though I would call it a coach. Would really help their organization and managing strategy since they take everything so personally. Also the coach to babysit them and make sure they don't stream all night and miss go4lol, not get drunk before a tournament and make sure they don't burn down the house.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
February 15 2012 20:12 GMT
#664
On February 16 2012 05:05 dooraven wrote:
"Next time we just book one scrim. They're not capable of playing more" - Wickd

Seriously, TSM.

I honestly think TSMs behaviour is quite disrespectful towards the people they play against. TSM may have time to play all day, but CLG only has this window of 4-5 hours to play as several have to do university etc. With all this shit happening this can lead to just 2 games they can play a day, as happened yesterday against CLGna.

It is also disrespectful towards the 15k viewers.
Off-season = best season
triangle
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3803 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 20:15:33
February 15 2012 20:14 GMT
#665
On February 16 2012 05:12 Redox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2012 05:05 dooraven wrote:
"Next time we just book one scrim. They're not capable of playing more" - Wickd

Seriously, TSM.
I honestly think TSMs behaviour is quite disrespectful towards the people they play against. TSM may have time to play all day, but CLG only has this window of 4-5 hours to play as several have to do university etc.

I hadn't thought about this, but yeah. Massive waste of CLG's time to put up with TSM nonsense, and CLG's time is actually far more valuable in this case.
Also known as waterfall / w4terfall
ManyCookies
Profile Joined December 2010
1164 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 20:25:17
February 15 2012 20:15 GMT
#666
The problem with the Tribunal System isn't just that it doesn't provide the exact incriminating details. The more generalized problem is that there's a large disassociation between the incriminating action and the associated punishment.

The verbal equivalent of a ban is "Oi, stop being a dick to people!". Now, if I said that to someone immediately after when they make a sexist joke AND when they beat a hobo on the street, then I've set a definitive boundary that the sexist jokes and hobo beating is wrong. However, if I wait a day and said "God, you were a dick yesterday", then the boundary is rather unclear. Am I only mad about the hobo beating? Was I mad about the sexist joke? Was I mad about either of those things? The ambiguity provides a rationalization to continue with the lesser, but still unacceptable behavior. As a Starcraft example, it's the difference between saying "Stop sucking at Macro so much" and "Constantly build workers" or "Don't queue up units". Without explicit boundaries on proper behavior, it's rather difficult for a person to adjust and improve his behavior/macro.

De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
February 15 2012 20:19 GMT
#667
why can regi never stop holy shit
GANDHISAUCE
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
February 15 2012 20:23 GMT
#668
TSM should like take a vacation or something. Way too much drama for a group of guys who play video games for a living. Just a day or two to go somewhere and do something together could do wonders for them. Or hell, a day or two where they're all apart might help too.
LaNague
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany9118 Posts
February 15 2012 20:29 GMT
#669
well, the tribunal banned snoopeh this week, one of the nicest players in LoL. One more indication that the tribunal doesnt work.
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12705 Posts
February 15 2012 20:33 GMT
#670
Leave computer for 15 min, come back and check stream. 2:00 into the game lol.

TSM should like take a vacation or something. Way too much drama for a group of guys who play video games for a living. Just a day or two to go somewhere and do something together could do wonders for them. Or hell, a day or two where they're all apart might help too.
This is a great idea.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
February 15 2012 20:34 GMT
#671
On February 16 2012 05:29 LaNague wrote:
well, the tribunal banned snoopeh this week, one of the nicest players in LoL. One more indication that the tribunal doesnt work.


You made an awfully large leap from "makes mistakes" to "doesn't work".
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
February 15 2012 20:37 GMT
#672
On February 16 2012 05:12 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:
Just a quick word from me. Riot is aware of the problem with false positives. Currently there is a filter that tries to tell when a report is 'valid' or not before being sent to the Tribunal. This should filter out all the reports where people are falsely accused of feeding or bad playing, but just had a bad day. Obviously, it's not perfect atm but they're working on it. They're also currently hiring PhD level Statisticians and Data Analytics so if you know anyone who fits that and is looking for a job, do tell them about it! Also, remember that there's always the final fail-safe of an actual Rioter to audit the Tribunal. Think of the Tribunal as a crowd sourced engine that filter that examines reports to be sent to a Rioter's Inbox. Kind of. On a separate note, I've heard there have been several fringe cases that have come up in internal discussions regarding improving the system, but the consensus was that these cases were still temp ban worthy, although marginally so.

Re giving reasons for bans: It's not efficient to do so. The people hours required to personalise each punishment is incredibly disproportionate compared to the effect it would have. That is to say, people generally don't care, or are insistent on contesting the reason given. I've handled enough complaints on the Help & Support Boards to get a general idea. Pendragon has a few amusing stories too, including the time when he had to explain to someone by phone that graphical death threats were not an appropriate method of constructive criticism... Also, explicitly stating what is and is not ban-worthy leads to people being pedantic about their bans and playing with semantics, dancing around the bigger issue.

It doesn't need to be personalized.

Just the Tribunal file (games incriminated), the vote ratio on your case, ... Stg automated.
The legend of Darien lives on
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
February 15 2012 20:42 GMT
#673
On February 16 2012 05:15 ManyCookies wrote:
The problem with the Tribunal System isn't just that it doesn't provide the exact incriminating details. The more generalized problem is that there's a large disassociation between the incriminating action and the associated punishment.

The verbal equivalent of a ban is "Oi, stop being a dick to people!". Now, if I said that to someone immediately after when they make a sexist joke AND when they beat a hobo on the street, then I've set a definitive boundary that the sexist jokes and hobo beating is wrong. However, if I wait a day and said "God, you were a dick yesterday", then the boundary is rather unclear. Am I only mad about the hobo beating? Was I mad about the sexist joke? Was I mad about either of those things? The ambiguity provides a rationalization to continue with the lesser, but still unacceptable behavior. As a Starcraft example, it's the difference between saying "Stop sucking at Macro so much" and "Constantly build workers" or "Don't queue up units". Without explicit boundaries on proper behavior, it's rather difficult for a person to adjust and improve his behavior/macro.


Tribunal isn't a way to ban someone, it is a filter to save Riot some work and exclude the "this 100% surely wasn't bannable" cases
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 15 2012 20:43 GMT
#674
So, Nautilus is quite fun, but he's that kind of champ where you can't do much if your team doesn't follow. Tried him top and jungle.
Top I was against an Akali and spec'd MR, so no MS quints, and 9-21-0. He felt really, really slow. I was camped by Udyr for the first 3 levels and died stupidly (I don't think Akali would have had a shot at killing me otherwise, at least not that one). We were kinda behind early on, then I got carried, but RoA + FH after philo gave me some nice survivability.

Jungling I was doing quite well but we had a Heimerdinger feeding botlane (I suspect it was intentional, how could Heimer be caught by Blitzcrank with minions + his turrets?), leading to an inevitable loss to super-fed Vayne.
He can jungle without a pull (started regrowth+pot, Orianna didn't feel the need to help in any way) but he falls really, really low (had to back after wolves). No idea how it would be with a proper leash. His first few levels are kinda slow since his spells don't damage enough so he relies on AAs a lot, and they're slow. Once he hits 4-5 tho, it's nice and a lot faster, thanks to the AoE on-hit effect of the shield.

His passive is really good for ganks, and I believe his Q is better than Blitz's for initiation as it doesn't pull your target as far from your laner(s). Your slowliness and the range on Riptides are so that if the ganked espaces, you won't catch him if you can't Q him immediatly, tho. Still a burnt flash in most cases.
You're a bit under Maokai in the CC-damage department, but you've got both in a satisfying amount.

His AoE clearing is good, both in lane and in the jungle. W should be leveled first as you need to mitigate damage since you're so slow (and you'll often have to survive for a few seconds for your Q to come off cd and allow you to escape), and it also reduces the cd of the spell.
CDR seems like a key stat on him, obviously because you want to spam cc and not rise your damage, but also because his cooldowns are damn long. Before glacial shroud, I often felt "skill-starved", esp. during fights and ganks where he'd be rare that I cast each spell more than once.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
February 15 2012 20:50 GMT
#675
Waking up to 8 pages about the Tribunal. What a boring topic. :<
Shame on you guys.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
February 15 2012 20:51 GMT
#676
On February 16 2012 05:50 NeoIllusions wrote:
Waking up to 8 pages about the Tribunal. What a boring topic. :<
Shame on you guys.

I'm with neo on this. I come back from work/class ready to dive into juicy liquidparty gossip and I get tribunal discussion zzzzzz

tsm stuff is kinda dead horse topic so meh.
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-15 20:53:24
February 15 2012 20:53 GMT
#677
We can talk about TRM failure to play the most manly char in the game if you really want...
The legend of Darien lives on
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
February 15 2012 20:54 GMT
#678
On February 16 2012 05:43 Alaric wrote:
So, Nautilus is quite fun, but he's that kind of champ where you can't do much if your team doesn't follow. Tried him top and jungle.
Top I was against an Akali and spec'd MR, so no MS quints, and 9-21-0. He felt really, really slow. I was camped by Udyr for the first 3 levels and died stupidly (I don't think Akali would have had a shot at killing me otherwise, at least not that one). We were kinda behind early on, then I got carried, but RoA + FH after philo gave me some nice survivability.

Jungling I was doing quite well but we had a Heimerdinger feeding botlane (I suspect it was intentional, how could Heimer be caught by Blitzcrank with minions + his turrets?), leading to an inevitable loss to super-fed Vayne.
He can jungle without a pull (started regrowth+pot, Orianna didn't feel the need to help in any way) but he falls really, really low (had to back after wolves). No idea how it would be with a proper leash. His first few levels are kinda slow since his spells don't damage enough so he relies on AAs a lot, and they're slow. Once he hits 4-5 tho, it's nice and a lot faster, thanks to the AoE on-hit effect of the shield.

His passive is really good for ganks, and I believe his Q is better than Blitz's for initiation as it doesn't pull your target as far from your laner(s). Your slowliness and the range on Riptides are so that if the ganked espaces, you won't catch him if you can't Q him immediatly, tho. Still a burnt flash in most cases.
You're a bit under Maokai in the CC-damage department, but you've got both in a satisfying amount.

His AoE clearing is good, both in lane and in the jungle. W should be leveled first as you need to mitigate damage since you're so slow (and you'll often have to survive for a few seconds for your Q to come off cd and allow you to escape), and it also reduces the cd of the spell.
CDR seems like a key stat on him, obviously because you want to spam cc and not rise your damage, but also because his cooldowns are damn long. Before glacial shroud, I often felt "skill-starved", esp. during fights and ganks where he'd be rare that I cast each spell more than once.

I also find myself wanting CDR more often than not. His spells are all so powerful, but he can't do much but sit around and eat damage while they're down. I mean, he's not alone in that regard, but the CC you can put out with high CDR is just silly.

My problem is that the only really good sources of CDR for tanks is SV and FH. SV is alright, but underwhelming for the most part. FH is great, but I feel like I'd rather have Randuin's since I'm building HoG 90% of the time anyway. Plus he can get it to lay down the Randuin's active with his AoE.

I also get torn between MR for him. I really like Abyssal (since his AP scaling happens to be silly good), but with his slow speed I at least partially want FoN.
It's your boy Guzma!
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
February 15 2012 20:54 GMT
#679
TSM drama aside, I read that TSM picked Shen? How is he looking in a scrim?

Edit: n/m, looks like mr_tolkien says TRM failed.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
February 15 2012 20:56 GMT
#680
On February 16 2012 05:54 NeoIllusions wrote:
TSM drama aside, I read that TSM picked Shen? How is he looking in a scrim?

Edit: n/m, looks like mr_tolkien says TRM failed.


TRM failed playing the MANTHEON.

Against Wickd GP.

And Regi's Ziggs play was a bit disappointing.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
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