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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum!  Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment.
i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane.
95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game.
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 03:36 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum! Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment. i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane. 95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game.
Yep, a person can like, lose a trade solotop by 20 hp -> lose a second trade by such a margin -> maybe get dived by the opposing jungler and the opposing laner -> after this point the lane's impossible for them and they just keep feeding and at the end of the game they allchat "report x for feeding and noob" or something like that and it probably works at least for some, and what did it start from? losing an exchange by 20 hp
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On February 16 2012 03:36 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum! Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment. i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane. 95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game.
Those people you are talking about probably never get to the tribunal in the first place. It takes a LOT more than a few random reports to be sent to the tribunal.
See http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/December_2011/2011_12_16_tribunal/Infographic_Tribunal.jpg -- only 1.4% of players have ever been punished by the tribunal. The graphic clearly states that you need "enough reports" before you're even sent to the tribunal, and 1.4% is a very low number considering how common trolls seem to be.
From what I've heard from people judging cases, the vast majority are very clear (deliberate, intentional trolling/feeding/etc.), and the ones that aren't clearly intentional usually aren't punished.
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On February 16 2012 03:52 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:36 LaNague wrote:On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum! Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment. i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane. 95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game. Yep, a person can like, lose a trade solotop by 20 hp -> lose a second trade by such a margin -> maybe get dived by the opposing jungler and the opposing laner -> after this point the lane's impossible for them and they just keep feeding and at the end of the game they allchat "report x for feeding and noob" or something like that and it probably works at least for some, and what did it start from? losing an exchange by 20 hp
Er, do you have any basis for saying this?
All the tribunal judges I've talked to said they wouldn't issue a ban for cases like this unless you engage in derp mode and start intentionally feeding.
Reporting for unskilled play doesn't get you banned AFAIK.
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Finland33997 Posts
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number?
People know that reporting for unskilled player doesn't get you banned, they report for intentional feeding
On February 16 2012 03:57 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:52 Shikyo wrote:On February 16 2012 03:36 LaNague wrote:On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum! Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment. i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane. 95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game. Yep, a person can like, lose a trade solotop by 20 hp -> lose a second trade by such a margin -> maybe get dived by the opposing jungler and the opposing laner -> after this point the lane's impossible for them and they just keep feeding and at the end of the game they allchat "report x for feeding and noob" or something like that and it probably works at least for some, and what did it start from? losing an exchange by 20 hp Er, do you have any basis for saying this? All the tribunal judges I've talked to said they wouldn't issue a ban for cases like this unless you engage in derp mode and start intentionally feeding. Reporting for unskilled play doesn't get you banned AFAIK. And how does that Riot person, with only the chatlog, see if its a case of intentional feed or just a bad game if he doesn't say anything and his teammates continuously flame him? Do you think that Riot employees are psychics?
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Haha TSM has such trouble with champ selection.
"Gogo get Shen""What you don't have Shen" "Oh shit I don't have Shen either" "Ok ok tell them the dog (Nasus) is Shen"
Now Karthus is Nunu lol, but just because TRM didn't pick in time because mike problems.
Krepo didn't inform rest of team, remaking champ selection now since CLG picked vs Karthus supposedly. TOO again criticizing Wicked for picking Irelia in scrims since they can just ban Irelia in tournaments.
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On February 16 2012 03:56 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:36 LaNague wrote:On February 16 2012 03:10 barbsq wrote:On February 16 2012 02:49 arnath wrote:On February 16 2012 00:26 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:It's k. Make a self-serving thread about "Tech Support" or something lame like that and you can get your own sticked thread you can shamelessly bump every day at the top of the subforum! Just my $0.02 on the Tribunal issue. The Wrenchies had a long discussion about this not too long ago. I'm not allowed to reveal what was said. However, I just want to assure you all that there are appropriate safeguards in place to ensure the Tribunal is working properly. Several Rioters are pretty much tasked with nothing but Tribunal Audit and ensuring everything is working properly (RiotPi is one of them, for instance). More improvements are being planned, especially with regards to the Tribunal heuristics. Personally I think the Tribunal is a decent system but I'd argue that most of the statistics you describe in this infographic are undesired. For example, 76% of report-ees being on the losing team is probably not a situation you want to happen because it suggests that people are being reported just because they lost the game. I think most ban-able behavior is present regardless of whether you won or lost a game. Similarly, 94% of people reported to the Tribunal being punished seems extraordinarily high. i havnt used tribunal recently, but did when it came out, but 94% doesn't seem like a big deal to me since every person I got had 8+ games where a bunch of ppl report them in recent history, so it's not like every report makes it to tribunal (as far as I kno), so chances are, most of those ppl deserve punishment. i dont know about your experiences, but in almost all my games someone gets reported for losing his lane. 95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game. Those people you are talking about probably never get to the tribunal in the first place. It takes a LOT more than a few random reports to be sent to the tribunal. See http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/December_2011/2011_12_16_tribunal/Infographic_Tribunal.jpg -- only 1.4% of players have ever been punished by the tribunal. The graphic clearly states that you need "enough reports" before you're even sent to the tribunal, and 1.4% is a very low number considering how common trolls seem to be. From what I've heard from people judging cases, the vast majority are very clear (deliberate, intentional trolling/feeding/etc.), and the ones that aren't clearly intentional usually aren't punished.
1.4% is a very high number considering at least 50% or so of the «players» are smurfs or dead accounts. Not to count the 30% of guys playing once a week.
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On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number?
All that matters is relative occurrence. The absolute number doesn't matter, if twice as many people play, I have no reason to assume the number of trolls doesn't double.
From http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=536799:
A15: When shall i punish feeders, when not?
Basicly, it is always your decision. Herefore remember, that the report reason is "intentionally" feeding and not just playing bad. Bad players are to be reported as bad player and not as feeder. Bad players are not guilty - you cant get banned cause you play bad!
From further below on that page:
B5: Can i be banned due to bad-player reports?
No. Bad player Reports dont go to the tribunal, they only lower your hidden-elo for a small bit.
B6: I was reported for feeding by many players in many games. Can i now get banned?
No. The report reason is called "intentional" feeding. As long as noone can prove, that you were dying on purpose (buying AD items on leblanc), you will not get banned.
So I don't see how just losing your lane or playing badly -- without intent to feed -- should get you banned. Unless the tribunal makes a mistake, which I'm sure happens, but shouldn't be frequent.
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 04:00 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number? All that matters is relative occurrence. The absolute number doesn't matter, if twice as many people play, I have no reason to assume the number of trolls doesn't double. From http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=536799:Show nested quote +
A15: When shall i punish feeders, when not?
Basicly, it is always your decision. Herefore remember, that the report reason is "intentionally" feeding and not just playing bad. Bad players are to be reported as bad player and not as feeder. Bad players are not guilty - you cant get banned cause you play bad!
I have read all of that, so what are you saying? That riot says that you can't get banned for playing bad? Cool, I couldn't care less what they say, I care about what ACTUALLY happens.
And I already addressed the bad player thing, NO ONE even reports for unskilled if they are mad at the person for being bad and losing the game dotdotdot
On February 16 2012 04:00 bmn wrote:
So I don't see how just losing your lane or playing badly -- without intent to feed -- should get you banned. Unless the tribunal makes a mistake, which I'm sure happens, but shouldn't be frequent.
It shouldn't but it does? Isn't that exactly what was the problem? Really .. . . . .. . . ... . . .... .. ..... . ....... . . . ..
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TSM
shen(top), shyvanna, nunu, leblanc, Mf
vs
CLG EU
maokai, janna, kogmaw, kennen and Irelia
TSM invades CLG's red area and picks off krepo then backs off and invades blue, burns wicked's flash. Steals CLG's blue and Maokai forced to start red first.
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On February 16 2012 04:00 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number? All that matters is relative occurrence. The absolute number doesn't matter, if twice as many people play, I have no reason to assume the number of trolls doesn't double. From http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=536799:Show nested quote +
A15: When shall i punish feeders, when not?
Basicly, it is always your decision. Herefore remember, that the report reason is "intentionally" feeding and not just playing bad. Bad players are to be reported as bad player and not as feeder. Bad players are not guilty - you cant get banned cause you play bad!
From further below on that page: Show nested quote +
B5: Can i be banned due to bad-player reports?
No. Bad player Reports dont go to the tribunal, they only lower your hidden-elo for a small bit.
B6: I was reported for feeding by many players in many games. Can i now get banned?
No. The report reason is called "intentional" feeding. As long as noone can prove, that you were dying on purpose (buying AD items on leblanc), you will not get banned.
So I don't see how just losing your lane or playing badly -- without intent to feed -- should get you banned. Unless the tribunal makes a mistake, which I'm sure happens, but shouldn't be frequent.
You don't get it. How does the system choses if you go to tribunal or not when people report you for intentional feeding ? Nobody can see the game.
And 94% of cases are punished.
Based on those stats, a good chunk of the bans must be unwarranted. Because if 3 reports in a row (just a bad day at top) = tribunal = 94% of chance to get punished, believe me, there is a large chunk of unwarranted bans.
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the tribunal is pretty easy to dupe honestly imo
if you want someone banned/reported, just say in chat "wow gg shen bought manamune" even if it's not true then at the end of the game "shen bought manamune then sold it back so he won't get banned please report"
boom, final game page shows him with standard items, chat implies that this wasn't the case. people gonna hit punish no matter what, then when riot reads the report they'll see what you said in chat. gg shen
edit: i'm 90% sure this is how i got one of my 3-day bans, a guy in a ranked game told the other team i bought manamune on leesin then sold it back and got them to report me
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This whole issue stems from their being a reason in the report menu called "Unskilled Player".....why the fuck is that even there?
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On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number?
1.4% of 40 million human beings on the internet getting banned for a couple days from the internet for being douche bags on the internet.
That penny arcade greater theory of internet fuck wads needs to be posted here imho
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I do the Tribunal pretty much every day. I'm still trying to fill out my champ roster and rune pages and the extra 400-500 IP per week is worth spending a couple minutes a day banning fools. From my experience AT LEAST 94% of people deserve to be banned forever and many could benefit from some kind of therapy. If you are telling people to kill themselves over their performance in a video game, you've got problems. If you go out of your way to be a dick to someone on the internet, you've got problems. I read every case until I find something ban worthy and then I hit punish and move on. Never have I pardoned more than one person in a day. Not because I just blindly hit punish, but because people just leave me with no other choice. Oh, its 31 minutes into the game and you have six boots and 25 deaths? Ban. Oh, you called that kid a retard and to kill himself? Ban. Oh, you wanna spam All Chat with "Report my N00b team they so n00b umadbro?" BAN.
95% sounds about right in my experience.
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Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2012 04:07 gtrsrs wrote:
the tribunal is pretty easy to dupe honestly imo
if you want someone banned/reported, just say in chat "wow gg shen bought manamune" even if it's not true then at the end of the game "shen bought manamune then sold it back so he won't get banned please report"
boom, final game page shows him with standard items, chat implies that this wasn't the case. people gonna hit punish no matter what, then when riot reads the report they'll see what you said in chat. gg shen
Just one of the multiple examples why the "riot doublechecking" is useless. They don't have enough information. It's so basic and super easy to understand yet people argue that somehow it matters if a riot dude checks it. If 4 teammates report a person for intentionally feeding and he's 0-10-3 and the whole game they keep calling him bad, what's the riot dude going to do, tell me? Figure it's just a bad game and not punish? However what if a person is intentionally feeding the toplane and the people say the same things, how can you know he's not having a bad game now?
On February 16 2012 04:09 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number?
1.4% of 40 million human beings on the internet getting banned for a couple days from the internet for being douche bags on the internet. That penny arcade greater theory of internet fuck wads needs to be posted here imho
You understand that a person isn't limited to just 1 account and most accounts actually are inactive right?
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On February 16 2012 04:09 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:59 Shikyo wrote:
1.4% is a very low number? out of what? As I've been banned at lvl 6 they obviously count all accounts into that. So you think 1.4% out of what, 40million is a low number?
1.4% of 40 million human beings on the internet
You realize those 40 millions accounts are 10 million players at most, right ?
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On February 16 2012 04:09 sob3k wrote:
This whole issue stems from their being a reason in the report menu called "Unskilled Player".....why the fuck is that even there?
To satisfy the retards who think it does anything.
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Eh I doubt you would get banned just for that. Tribunal brings up as many cases against a player as it can find. If you were only reported for that game and maybe 1 or 2 more both of which are grey cases you'll likely be pardoned. If you did get banned I doubt its for such a sketchy report. Also there is a tribunal thread somewhere.
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On February 16 2012 04:03 Shikyo wrote:
I have read all of that, so what are you saying? That riot says that you can't get banned for playing bad? Cool, I couldn't care less what they say, I care about what ACTUALLY happens.
And I already addressed the bad player thing, NO ONE even reports for unskilled if they are mad at the person for being bad and losing the game dotdotdot
You were replying to the initial claim that "95% punish rate means that people get banned for having a bad game." and your reply suggested that you thought this was indeed the case. If that's not what you meant to imply, could you state more clearly what you were saying?
I pointed out why being reported for feeding should not get you banned if you weren't intentionally feeding.
It shouldn't but it does? Isn't that exactly what was the problem? Really .. . . . .. . . ... . . .... .. ..... . ....... . . . ..
Sorry, I lost track of what you're trying to claim here. I'm saying it's very very unlikely that you'll be banned because you lost your lane after an initial exchange where you were 20 hp down, which snowballed into you failing repeated engagements.
I'm sure it's possible, but so is anything in a peer-reviewed system.
Edit: OK, apparently it's easy to dupe the tribunal into thinking you intentionally fed... I haven't judged any cases, so I'll have to see for myself how much data you have beyond chat logs, if anything.
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EPT
