I don't know how you can be excited about Fiona. Riot says they'll reduce the IP costs of old champions but with Fiona it feels like they're rereleasing old champions and giving them boobs so they sell better.
I say it half jokingly, but I feel the other half is true. It does in fact make me wonder how much game space they have left and what they will do when the number of champions gets too ridiculous to release more. When I started playing there were like ~55 champions, now there are 93. Each new champion not only costs more but is also worth half as much in terms of game space and now it would take a newbie at least 5 years of full time playing to catch up and get them all for free. Meanwhile the options for champ bundles are identical to what they were when I started and the bundles themselves are less valuable than they used to be.
There has to be *some* limit, right? When will people get tired of shelling out cash for the new champion?
On February 28 2012 14:08 gtrsrs wrote: Most of those champs have pretty difficult laning phases or low income jungles... Hard to tank anything when you just get ran over in lane
It's not impossible but 2 bruisers 2 carries 1 support is more practical
Would playing rather conservatively in lanes that have "difficult" laning phases simply be fine when you play conservatively and just farm? If you don't die and feed kills to the other team then you kinda deny them snowballing as well and once that weaker phase is over and team fights happen Boom. Jungle I think would be the weakest point since I would think any of those champs listed would be very vulnerable to getting counter jungled hard as they are all relatively slow junglers and have weaker ganks pre 6.
On February 28 2012 14:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: if you're running 4protect1 comps, can't the enemy team just spec for one side of the defensive stuff in terms of resists and be pretty strong against you in midgame teamfights? like in the above example, can't the other team just spam MR on everyone and do well in the midgame fights.
If you're really funnelling all the farm proactively into a carry that scales hard enough, then said carry's damage output will outscale the other team's survivability.
Like, do you think 6-item Trist really cares that everyone on the other team has a Chain Vest?
Practically speaking though, it's hard to funnel your farm efficiently onto a carry like that (multiple lanes are pushing, carry can't farm both, so someone has to clean up the farm. Plus there's also the fact that its hard for the carry to farm far off lanes and still be able to come to fights. If your other 4 team members can't 4vX, then it puts a lot of pressure on the carry.
On February 28 2012 14:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: if you're running 4protect1 comps, can't the enemy team just spec for one side of the defensive stuff in terms of resists and be pretty strong against you in midgame teamfights? like in the above example, can't the other team just spam MR on everyone and do well in the midgame fights.
Well the comp I listed wouldn't be 4 protect cassio mid + a ranged AD carry bottom so you wouldn't be able to just go hardcore one or the other. 3 protect and an ap mid that has a aoe cc component to her.
Maybe have the jungle just be one of the fast clear good ganking jungles so they could lock down jungle and support lanes instead of another cc bot.
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
On February 28 2012 14:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: if you're running 4protect1 comps, can't the enemy team just spec for one side of the defensive stuff in terms of resists and be pretty strong against you in midgame teamfights? like in the above example, can't the other team just spam MR on everyone and do well in the midgame fights.
If you're really funnelling all the farm proactively into a carry that scales hard enough, then said carry's damage output will outscale the other team's survivability.
Like, do you think 6-item Trist really cares that everyone on the other team has a Chain Vest?
Practically speaking though, it's hard to funnel your farm efficiently onto a carry like that (multiple lanes are pushing, carry can't farm both, so someone has to clean up the farm. Plus there's also the fact that its hard for the carry to farm far off lanes and still be able to come to fights. If your other 4 team members can't 4vX, then it puts a lot of pressure on the carry.
Well I did say midgame teamfights when that carry doesn't have enough farm to outdamage the tankiness of your team. Ofc if you drag the game enough and your carry doesn't get caught out of position you come out in a really strong position.
On February 28 2012 14:22 iCanada wrote: It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
It's the opposite. Getting less people farmed is actually easier than getting more people farmed.
If you only need to get Kog'maw farmed, then it's super easy for him to farm lanes with everyone else (exaggeration, but it's basically guaranteed he can have a good laning phase when the jungler is camping his lane and mid is ganking for him) just camping him in case he gets ganked. The problem is that when he hits 6 items, your team's fighting power essentially caps out because everyone else is playing a support role. When 4-protects-1 teams were popular, this was fine because Kog, MF, Twitch, etc. just did insane enough damage, so that didn't matter. But now your team needs to be able to scale past that because pretty much no single character has that much killing power on their own.
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control. Plus Since Cass can push the lane and roam a bit thats further support for other lanes.
I think people just realized there's no point in having only 1 carry when you can have 2 with pretty much no additional hassle. You can't actually channel that much additional creep farm into 1 character because 1 character can't farm 3 lanes anyways, meaning other characters on your team will still have farm regardless. Since carries can take heat off from each other, they basically provide "support" for each other by virtue of being there.
But moreover, I think it's difficult to actually build a workable "protect the kog" team these days. For the 4+1 teamcomp to lead to a win, not only does the 4 need to be able to protect your carry in a teamfight, but need to be very strong in actively roaming and providing map control + shutting down the enemy farm.
On February 28 2012 14:15 phyvo wrote: I don't know how you can be excited about Fiona. Riot says they'll reduce the IP costs of old champions but with Fiona it feels like they're rereleasing old champions and giving them boobs so they sell better.
I say it half jokingly, but I feel the other half is true. It does in fact make me wonder how much game space they have left and what they will do when the number of champions gets too ridiculous to release more. When I started playing there were like ~55 champions, now there are 93. Each new champion not only costs more but is also worth half as much in terms of game space and now it would take a newbie at least 5 years of full time playing to catch up and get them all for free. Meanwhile the options for champ bundles are identical to what they were when I started and the bundles themselves are less valuable than they used to be.
There has to be *some* limit, right? When will people get tired of shelling out cash for the new champion?
i think with the more champs being released, champions that are free every week will also increase. say 100 is the magic number and the free week champion number increases to 15 or even idealistically 20. Maybe theyll start off every account with a Champions Bundle when they hit a benchmark of champions or a time span (end of the season gift or something) because of your said reason that the cost for those bundles dropped a lot over the few years.
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control.
...
Isn't that pretty much what everyone does now? Typically you have a Carry bot with a "protect" then a Jungler who goes around a) securing objectives and b) helping lanes... and then you have a bruiser top who is getting farm so thsat they can effectively peel for the carry late game.
gp top, ori mid, mao jungle, kog + support (depending on matchup, often sona though) bot.
edit: beat by post above, lol.
Basically such comps are already ran still. It's just not as noticeable since the "support" junglers/tops generally do more lategame damage then the old counterparts wayyyy back in the day (like, when garen was op days) For instance, shen, cho (only feast does damage if you build tanky), or malph top who does no damage lategame vs now running something like irelia or riven who deals a ton of lategame damage and outright makes another huge "threat", or nunu jungle who deals 0 damage lategame vs something like lee sin, mao who provides a ton of damage mitigation and more cc, etc
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control.
...
Isn't that pretty much what everyone does now? Typically you have a Carry bot with a "protect" then a Jungler who goes around a) securing objectives and b) helping lanes... and then you have a bruiser top who is getting farm so thsat they can effectively peel for the carry late game.
I lost mang.
I guess it is except instead of having a bruiser top and a support bot you have two tanks.
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control.
...
Isn't that pretty much what everyone does now? Typically you have a Carry bot with a "protect" then a Jungler who goes around a) securing objectives and b) helping lanes... and then you have a bruiser top who is getting farm so thsat they can effectively peel for the carry late game.
I lost mang.
I guess it is except instead of having a bruiser top and a support bot you have two tanks.
Half the supports ARE tanks, and realistically you get a bruiser farmed so they can initiate and peel like a tank would anyway... only really difference is that a bruiser can deal deeps and has slightly less CC.
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control.
...
Isn't that pretty much what everyone does now? Typically you have a Carry bot with a "protect" then a Jungler who goes around a) securing objectives and b) helping lanes... and then you have a bruiser top who is getting farm so thsat they can effectively peel for the carry late game.
I lost mang.
I guess it is except instead of having a bruiser top and a support bot you have two tanks.
Half the supports ARE tanks, and realistically you get a bruiser farmed so they can initiate and peel like a tank would anyway... only really difference is that a bruiser can deal deeps and has slightly less CC.
/shrug
True enough. I know it was rather silly but I just like to think about team comps that are not part of the current meta. And not silly/troll/niche ones but ones that could potentially shift to the "norm" (although at the elo I play at half the games don't follow the meta anyway). I really need to watch more "high level" games to see how things are done "the correct way" I think solo Q and normals have severely warped my idea of how the game is played at a high level because even reading about how to play correctly doesn't do it for me because people on both teams react differently to things at my level then they do at high elo. Thanks for bearing with me through this though
On February 28 2012 13:58 Slaughter wrote: I know this is probably silly but GD is for people throwing out ideas and letting people call them dumb right? :D
Anyways this is just me thinking about team comps and I have heard that things like 4 protect 1 carry were used once upon a time. Why has this fallen off? If a team was just crazy cc heavy and spaced their cc correctly wouldn't it still be good? If you force the other team into running a lot of cleanse/buying qss then you forced them to use up a slot that could otherwise be spent on something else. So what about a team comp that had 3 of the CC bots on it like Leona/Naut/Galio/Sej/Mumu/etc and then having like cass mid. Thats a fuck ton of cc a team has to deal with and not everyone of the cc bots have to build super tanky and can be hybrids to do a bit more dmg. Or would qss and people running cleanse be that easy to counter this? I know people talk about being spread out in fights when vs these comps but can you really be THAT spread out in many portions of the map? Also if you have that many aoe disables then you could immobilize multiple people multiple times or have people take different "portions" of the team or just use it to catch people all the time.
I'm not sure QSS would be enough alone even if everyone on the opposite team has it it only removes effects and not future ones. Cleanse does but only for 3 seconds and forcing multiple opponents to take it seems like an advantage for you.
Thoughts?
It still puts all your eggs in one basket... which is the whole reason why it stopped being used in favour of the more popular 2 carries, 2 semi carries, and a support model. Your Carry doesn't get farmed and you just lose. So what the other team do? just focus on getting your carry not farmed, and you lose. Doesn't matter if you Sej farmed when your Kog'Maw is the only one that can kill things.
If you had good jungle support on your two "carry" lanes would it not be ok? I don't see how it would be possible to hard deny farm to both lanes with a carry. I mean with a jungle presence it wouldn't allow hardcore zoning of your carry lane (Cass can farm ezpz without having too many bad match ups) and your top can just farm and not get himself killed. I know some top champs can get out of control but CC will shutdown anyone if you have enough of it.
This isn't a 4 protect-1 carry scenario but a derivative of it with 3 protects and two carries (one AP (Cass who also has cc) and an AD). Or supplant the protect who jungles with someone who can have strong jungle control.
...
Isn't that pretty much what everyone does now? Typically you have a Carry bot with a "protect" then a Jungler who goes around a) securing objectives and b) helping lanes... and then you have a bruiser top who is getting farm so thsat they can effectively peel for the carry late game.
I lost mang.
I guess it is except instead of having a bruiser top and a support bot you have two tanks.
Half the supports ARE tanks, and realistically you get a bruiser farmed so they can initiate and peel like a tank would anyway... only really difference is that a bruiser can deal deeps and has slightly less CC.
/shrug
True enough. I know it was rather silly but I just like to think about team comps that are not part of the current meta. And not silly/troll/niche ones but ones that could potentially shift to the "norm" (although at the elo I play at half the games don't follow the meta anyway). I really need to watch more "high level" games to see how things are done "the correct way" I think solo Q and normals have severely warped my idea of how the game is played at a high level because even reading about how to play correctly doesn't do it for me because people on both teams react differently to things at my level then they do at high elo. Thanks for bearing with me through this though
Eh, it no problem man. I do the same thing all the time, just I usually don't have the balls to pipe up and decide it dumb on my own. You're line of thinking was good, and at the end of the day I am a mediocre player at best myself.
On February 28 2012 11:01 Shiv. wrote: Content: What's your favourite jungler that oddly works well enough?
Blitzcrank, probably.
So much fun to just run into a lane, knock someone up in the air and then hook then after they Flash away.
Other than a slow initial clear, he actually clears very quickly with Wriggle's and has presence all over the map with Mobility Boots and Overdrive.
Late-game, if you build any kind of damage, you tend to die too quickly to use it. If you go Warmog's/Atma's you can kinda circumvent that; but, as a jungler it is really difficult to farm that. His base HP is ridiculously high (+100 per level), so getting those premier tank items can make you really tanky, especially with your passive.
And, as always, those late-game hooks will win games on their own.
EPT
