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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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On February 15 2012 02:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:18 Cloud9157 wrote:
Don't remember what they did to Shen, but I spoke to a few of my friends with decent ELO (~1500+) and they really don't think he is going to be that good. I mean, much better than he was, but still not that good.
edit: Took a look at him. I'm not sure how he is supposed to be op or whatever.
Shen has no CC outside of Shadow Dash. He can't do his job as a tank by sticking on top of a carry or protecting one other than Stand United, which will be his free teleport into a fight. His shield is just absolutely awful imo. Why does a tank need a shield? He really doesn't, since he just builds HP and AP now it looks like. I always thought he needed more damage, and they should go about that by either removing his shield, or make it strengthen Ki Strike/VB, as opposed to lowering the CD like they did.
More damage, or be able to put the shield on an ally or add another CC skill.
Shen will be experimented with, but I truly believe he still won't be that good. Why are you talking about his uses as a defensive support when he's gained a significant source of offensive scaling? Ki Strike CD refreshing on your attacks rather than you getting hit means that attack speed items are extremely smooth to buy now.
Because hes a tank?
Like I said, he has no way of sticking on a carry or protecting one like Galio can. Maokai snares and disables someone, Amumu stuns twice (I believe bandage is a stun correct if wrong), Galio's entire moveset can be used to protect a carry if he really wanted to, Malphite knocks people up and slows.
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly.
Like I said, these buffs help him, but they will NOT suddenly make him godlike.
Shen was good pre-patch. His biggest issue was that he couldn't jungle for farm, and no one wanted to put him top lane. Played as a support Shen was horrible because he needed farm to be effective. A Shen with farm was still extremely dangerous.
My lord, Shen was awful pre-patch. I saw him used in 1 tournament. I forget which one, but Dignitas ran him top vs EG, who sent Dyrus top with Sion. Dyrus finished with over 400 farm that game because it was a freefarm for him.
That was the problem with Shen. Sure, he doesn't die in lane, but shove the damn lane on him. You're going to get free farm all day because he didn't do any damage and was heavily reliant on items.
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him.
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they basically made shen scale better with offensive stats (specifically aspeed) so now he's a lot better at assaulting carries olaf style. As far as sticking, all you need is triforce or mallet, and neither are exactly strange buys on shen.
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Everyone thinks Triforce is a strange buy on shen, even though it's been fucking beast mode on him for like, 2 years now.
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On February 15 2012 02:37 Mogwai wrote:
Everyone thinks Triforce is a strange buy on shen, even though it's been fucking beast mode on him for like, 2 years now.
Kind... of? Where do you fit it though? If you rush it, you will have no survivability at all in battles. Shen's a bad farmer though, so after you've made yourself tanky, when do you find the time to go for the triforce?
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On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's).
If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult.
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On February 15 2012 02:39 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:37 Mogwai wrote:
Everyone thinks Triforce is a strange buy on shen, even though it's been fucking beast mode on him for like, 2 years now. Kind... of? Where do you fit it though? If you rush it, you will have no survivability at all in battles. Shen's a bad farmer though, so after you've made yourself tanky, when do you find the time to go for the triforce?
you're always split pushing with Shen. 100% of the time. Farming up a Triforce shouldn't be that hard.
and for whatever it's worth, I've been going wriggles, HoG, Triforce as my opening items on shen for awhile now, with an option for aegis after phage if shit is going really bad. Triforce rush is the best way to solo people with Shen and if Shen hits the point where he can solo people, his split push is a total fucking bitch to deal with.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank?
Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role.
On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly.
So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game?
On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him.
Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him.
He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick.
On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult.
Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues.
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Just had a game where no one picked their chars cause it was a blank screen for everyone so it was basically All random game, and our ashe got a double kill from killing kog once lol.
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What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate.
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On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:02 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 01:18 Cloud9157 wrote:
Don't remember what they did to Shen, but I spoke to a few of my friends with decent ELO (~1500+) and they really don't think he is going to be that good. I mean, much better than he was, but still not that good.
edit: Took a look at him. I'm not sure how he is supposed to be op or whatever.
Shen has no CC outside of Shadow Dash. He can't do his job as a tank by sticking on top of a carry or protecting one other than Stand United, which will be his free teleport into a fight. His shield is just absolutely awful imo. Why does a tank need a shield? He really doesn't, since he just builds HP and AP now it looks like. I always thought he needed more damage, and they should go about that by either removing his shield, or make it strengthen Ki Strike/VB, as opposed to lowering the CD like they did.
More damage, or be able to put the shield on an ally or add another CC skill.
Shen will be experimented with, but I truly believe he still won't be that good. Why are you talking about his uses as a defensive support when he's gained a significant source of offensive scaling? Ki Strike CD refreshing on your attacks rather than you getting hit means that attack speed items are extremely smooth to buy now. Because hes a tank? Like I said, he has no way of sticking on a carry or protecting one like Galio can. Maokai snares and disables someone, Amumu stuns twice (I believe bandage is a stun correct if wrong), Galio's entire moveset can be used to protect a carry if he really wanted to, Malphite knocks people up and slows. Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. Like I said, these buffs help him, but they will NOT suddenly make him godlike. Show nested quote +Shen was good pre-patch. His biggest issue was that he couldn't jungle for farm, and no one wanted to put him top lane. Played as a support Shen was horrible because he needed farm to be effective. A Shen with farm was still extremely dangerous.
My lord, Shen was awful pre-patch. I saw him used in 1 tournament. I forget which one, but Dignitas ran him top vs EG, who sent Dyrus top with Sion. Dyrus finished with over 400 farm that game because it was a freefarm for him. That was the problem with Shen. Sure, he doesn't die in lane, but shove the damn lane on him. You're going to get free farm all day because he didn't do any damage and was heavily reliant on items. New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him.
Think of it this way. Some tanks are "tanks" because they force you to adapt to them and reposition based on how they play (Galio, Amumu, Rammus). Shen is a different type of tank, because he not only has utility in his taunt, ult, and heal, he also brings a lot of damage. You want to focus him because if you don't, he's going to tear up a carry. If you do focus him, he's defensive enough to eat the damage and let his team freely attack because they're in no danger of getting hit.
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On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate.
Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now.
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On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate.
he just had some scaling issues really
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On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now.
Viktor suffers from it too, although it's starting to improve a bit. Now I get flamed ~80% of my games for picking Vik instead of 100%
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yea, since you never had the energy to feint, his post 12 scaling was pretty =\ I guess.
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On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now.
Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team.
And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man.
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On February 15 2012 02:51 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now. Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team. And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man.
karma's a bad support, but everyone thinks she's a 0 cs support for bot lane, soooo, that's pretty much it. She's a support the same way Lux, Zil, Oriana or Morgana is a support
Inept and I ran Karma mid and Singed top this weekend to win our tourney and it was too much fun. Karma with deathcap, 50 HP, CDs up and 2 mantra charges is the most dangerous character in the game.
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On February 15 2012 02:51 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now. Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team. And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man.
the community is extraordinarily fickle, which is always why I'm always of the opinion that I don't really care what ppl pick as long as there's some semblance of intelligence behind it (i.e. dont fucking pick tryndamere when you need a supporty bot laner)
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You say that, but maxing shout is really devistating.
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Speaking of stupid supports, I played a game before work today and the opposing team had brand supporting. here's the kicker, 15 cs Brand at 30 minutes with like, 2gp10, 1 dring, and sorc boots was still putting out utterly retarded amounts of damage. What a stupid fucking character. Ofc I raped their Trynd 100% out of the game with Wukong, so we won anyway, but I was just generally pissed by how much damage that fucker did with literally no items.
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EPT
