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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On February 15 2012 02:51 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now. Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team. And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man.
Garen also has the ability to pretty much decimate a good percentage of people who lane against him and be pretty tanky in the late game, thanks to his shield thing. His ult also makes him dangerous later on at pretty much all points.
Shen just never felt scary past a certain point. Yeah, he could ult in and change the flow of a fight, but once he taunted and shielded, he was OOE and you could basically ignore everything about him. Now he'll have dangerous damage just by building health and a Wit's (and maybe TF somewhere), and have less Energy problems.
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On February 15 2012 02:51 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now. Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team. And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man.
Underplayed champ automatically is bad for the majority of the people who play this game, and because it's bad it'll stay underplayed.
Just like a tiny buff makes something playable completely OP/playable again(despite the buff almost doing nothing) and a minor nerf making fotm #1 champ completely unplayable. Dumb community is all.
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Shen also crushes a lot of tops (he beats the bag out of Garen with wriggle's rush btw) and if you built TF on old shen, he was still scary as fuck, everyone was just building him wrong...
w/e, won't look a gift horse in the mouth, just think Shen was better than everyone was willing to give him credit for and that their retarded builds were the main problem.
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Don't they remember they took damage away from kistrike
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Wow there are 27k people watching Saintvicious, 10k watching ocelote and another 8k watching Guardsman Bob.
the viewer numbers LoL pulls are just incredible. And its only solo q or even just unranked games. Crazy.
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On February 15 2012 02:56 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:51 Nos- wrote:On February 15 2012 02:48 Mogwai wrote:On February 15 2012 02:44 Nos- wrote:
What was Shen's problem pre-patch? A friend of mine plays Shen zealously and he consistently does fairly well on ranked games. Never thought Shen's kit was weak, especially with shield+taunt and his global ultimate. Shen's biggest problem pre-patch was that everyone hated him for no reason, it's like Karma's biggest weakness too. Irrational hate for champions who no one plays. Assuming the energy returns are good for shen, he should be really strong now. Speaking of which why the hate on Karma? Just the community thinking unpopular champion == bad champion? The one time I play against Karma the lady supported the shit out of Graves and just wrecked my team. And towards scaling issues on Shen, doesn't Garen also scale horrendously towards the late game? I don't see that much hate on Garen, everyone seems to love the bushwhacking demacia man. Garen also has the ability to pretty much decimate a good percentage of people who lane against him and be pretty tanky in the late game, thanks to his shield thing. His ult also makes him dangerous later on at pretty much all points. Shen just never felt scary past a certain point. Yeah, he could ult in and change the flow of a fight, but once he taunted and shielded, he was OOE and you could basically ignore everything about him. Now he'll have dangerous damage just by building health and a Wit's (and maybe TF somewhere), and have less Energy problems.
If you gave Shen blue buff he was a nightmare. They buffed blue from 15 ep5 to 35 ep5 with the jungle remake. With just one CDR item, some masteries, and blue Shen could spam taunt and Q liberally without issue.
Seriously, a farmed Shen with his dash every 4.8s and the energy to use it crushed team fights pre-patch. Post-patch it'll be even more ridiculous.
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On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues.
I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers.
You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time.
Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything.
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Trinity shen sticks to carrys just fine. Can also peel later on. This is AFTER initating with taunt. Still has flash and W and taunt to get away if he gets in a tight situation. You need lots of farm to get trinity and be tanky, that's why you needed to win lane.
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France8575 Posts
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Chat servers are down for me, ranked is doing so I'm just eating haha.
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On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank? Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues. I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers. You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time. Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything.
Shen with triforce sticks just fine. He has a dash + AoE CC, what the hell more do you want? Like, sure, he's no Jarman or WW on someone below 50% HP, but he's better than a lot of other bruisers at sticking to carries (better than Udyr, Nasus, Pantheon, Tryndamere, Jax for example).
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:
Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything.
Honestly, I don't see this being the case. Most laners that can free-push against him don't pick up that pushing tempo till like level 4 or 5. Shen can probably shit on a lot of those guys starting at level 1-2.
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On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank? Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues. I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers. You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time. Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything.
didnt neo just curbstomp an irelia?
and if shen crushes irelia, damn good chance he crushes nasus, or any1 who has even a remotely weak laning phase.
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If udyr didnt have phoenix stance and the ability ti jungle he would be trash tier. Dun matter how strong his top lane matchups are, if he is your primary bruiser you are fucked. Nimblness gone hurt him huge.
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On February 15 2012 03:13 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank? Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues. I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers. You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time. Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything. didnt neo just curbstomp an irelia? and if shen crushes irelia, damn good chance he crushes nasus, or any1 who has even a remotely weak laning phase.
Did he do it pre 8-9 on Irelia? Because Irelia is balls early. That really is not an accomplishment. I play Irelia, and you really need to just play passive and let the lane push and last hit at tower. When you start to gain lvls and experience, you start to destroy plenty of tops.
Can't speak for Nasus, but I believe he is pretty bad early as well.
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On February 15 2012 03:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
If udyr didnt have phoenix stance and the ability ti jungle he would be trash tier. Dun matter how strong his top lane matchups are, if he is your primary bruiser you are fucked. Nimblness gone hurt him huge.
All you need is randuins.
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On February 15 2012 03:13 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank? Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues. I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers. You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time. Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything. didnt neo just curbstomp an irelia? and if shen crushes irelia, damn good chance he crushes nasus, or any1 who has even a remotely weak laning phase.
Shen chucks 150 damage in your face every 3 seconds at level 5 and completely ignores your damage output. He hits you for more if you get close enough to eat ki strikes and more autos. I really don't get where Cloud9157's getting this, "anyone can free farm vs. Shen" idea, but let me tell you it's pure bullshit.
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On February 15 2012 03:13 Two_DoWn wrote:
If udyr didnt have phoenix stance and the ability ti jungle he would be trash tier. Dun matter how strong his top lane matchups are, if he is your primary bruiser you are fucked. Nimblness gone hurt him huge.
Not really. I think udyr top lane is fine if it's strong. Nowadays anyway jungle is primary bruiser or at least the way I play. Top lane always pick some stupid bullshit like graves or corki top, some AP like kennen or vlad, or someone like tryndamere it's kinda annoying.
Udyr top doesn't even need nimbleness, with earlier levels in bear because of top lane xp and usually a trinity build you move really fast anyway.
Sure udyr can be CC'd and kited and stuff, but if you play smart you can get around it. He's no irelia but he can still apply a lot of pressure even if the carries are really mobile.
And yeah, randuins really key item on udyr, shurelyas too, if you're not getting trinity.
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yep, the next logical step for the game is corki/vayne/graves/teemo top lane. 2 ranged carries is better than one.
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On February 15 2012 03:18 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:13 barbsq wrote:On February 15 2012 03:03 Cloud9157 wrote:On February 15 2012 02:41 TheYango wrote:On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Because hes a tank? Part of why I hate this term. It gets people to incorrectly assign a defensive role to a champ that is in no way restricted to playing a defensive role. On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
Shen gains damage, but thats not even what you want in a tank. Sure, you can play him tanky DPS, but he still has no way of sticking on a carry regardless. Taunt them and then what? Continue to run at them? Hell, Shen shouldn't even be able to taunt if the carry is positioning correctly. So how the hell does an 8 second CD dash that has moderate range and taunts every target along the way not compare favorably to like...every other gap closer in the game? On February 15 2012 02:13 Cloud9157 wrote:
New Shen should be more aggressive, but I think he will still have the same problem against anyone that shoves a lane into him. Yes, he does have weaknesses. Weaknesses that he shares with a lot of the champ pool. Not an extraordinary strike against him. He doesn't need to be uncounterable to be an extremely strong pick. On February 15 2012 02:41 jcarlsoniv wrote:On February 15 2012 02:07 TheYango wrote:
Does anyone else feel that Ionic Spark needs a tiny buff to the bounce range of the chain lightning effect? The range is just short enough that you can't hit the ranged creeps with the chain lightning when you attack the melee ones, which makes it awkward as a farming item (and its use as an AoE pushing/farming tool is the only real reason I'd buy it over Wit's). If they did, would this somewhat diminish the power of Voli's ult? I mean, I know the damage still wouldn't be there, but the arc range is one nice thing about Voli's ult. Honestly, if Volibear's ult range comparing favorably/unfavorably with Ionic Spark makes or breaks the champion, he's got bigger issues. I never said it was strictly a defensive role. As I said, tanks/bruisers need to STICK TO OR PROTECT a carry. Shen does not do either of those well enough compared to other tanks/bruisers. You would be surprised what happens in 8 seconds. A Vayne could kill everyone in the face if given appropriate protection in that time. Of course he doesn't need to be uncounterable. He still isn't a strong pick because of how bad he is at farming, and how he will probably still force a lane to be free farm. If thats the case, I would gladly take Nasus and Irelia for example over Shen. He can do whatever he pleases while they kill everything. didnt neo just curbstomp an irelia? and if shen crushes irelia, damn good chance he crushes nasus, or any1 who has even a remotely weak laning phase. Shen chucks 150 damage in your face every 3 seconds at level 5 and completely ignores your damage output. He hits you for more if you get close enough to eat ki strikes and more autos. I really don't get where you're getting this, "anyone can free farm vs. Shen" idea, but let me tell you it's pure bullshit.
So... Lets build MR?
Pretty sure I'm done. Just have to wait for this stupid as shit hype to blow over.
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EPT
