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[Patch 1.0.0.133: Ziggs] General Discussion - Page 156

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Heed these two simple warnings. It will help make our GD a better place.

Consider this fair notice to all users. Warning will be dished out this patch.

Thanks.
Neo, 31.01.12
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
February 12 2012 00:30 GMT
#3101
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.
currently rooting for myself.
beefhamburger
Profile Joined December 2007
United States3962 Posts
February 12 2012 00:36 GMT
#3102
On February 12 2012 09:30 Shiv. wrote:
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.

I like it so far but I wish they had ability ratios and numbers for skills in the little pop-ups.
Shiv.
Profile Joined January 2011
3534 Posts
February 12 2012 00:38 GMT
#3103
On February 12 2012 09:36 beefhamburger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2012 09:30 Shiv. wrote:
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.

I like it so far but I wish they had ability ratios and numbers for skills in the little pop-ups.

That's one thing I've immediately noticed and missed as well. Other than that, I like it better than the current Solomid design, but they're working on new stuff too, so I'm stoked for that.
currently rooting for myself.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-12 00:40:13
February 12 2012 00:39 GMT
#3104
On February 12 2012 02:58 r.Evo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2012 02:55 clickrush wrote:
i want one of the flying monkeys if you can spare one


Show nested quote +
Teutonica joined the room.
rTU (6:55): LOL TEUT
antemattar (6:55): oh god it's teutonica
rTU (6:55): NO ONE ELSE DARES TO POST IN GD ANYMORE
Zulbukh (6:55): wat
rTU (6:55): WE WIN
clickrush (6:55): sec
clickrush (6:55): have to check gd
clickrush (6:55): and write random stuff



You just had to break the awkward silence that followed, did you? =(


I see you edited out the random all caps I shouted when I joined. I can't even remember what it was.

Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 12 2012 00:49 GMT
#3105
Don't you shout random caps everytime you join anyway?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Shanba
Profile Joined October 2010
Scotland144 Posts
February 12 2012 01:20 GMT
#3106
V8 are arguing on stream about the tumble fight. Takashi and TreeEskimo are saying that the fight was bad no question, whereas muffin is saying that rumble was out of position and if takashi had been with them they could have killed him. But Takashi and tree are saying that the only reason that rumble was the ONLY one who came down to kill muffin was because takashi had made the (move that they all agree is dumb) in going round behind the blue in the first place.
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
February 12 2012 01:40 GMT
#3107
I re-read this again, and it seemed to me that they're fixing lots of bugs. Great. Honestly? Less glitches -> Less angry people.
kiss kiss fall in love
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17250 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-12 03:34:47
February 12 2012 02:38 GMT
#3108
On February 12 2012 07:25 DoXa wrote:
but you can change your IP, right? or get dynamic IP's from you ISP? i'm bad at understanding these network things

Let's see if I can explain this. Basically, there are a finite number of IP addresses which can be grouped in various ways.

IP addresses these days are typically IPv4, which are 32 bits long, which is 4,294,967,296 IP addresses. There's actually a bit less available in the public domain and the shortage of IP addresses is part of the reason the world is slowly migrating to IPv6, but I digress.

A typical public IP address might be something like 74.125.113.99 (in this case the IP of Google.com that faces the web). Notice that there are four groupings of numbers. As stated earlier, there are about 4.3 billion IP addresses. Consider a public IP address to be like a mailing address. If a single post office tried to keep track and route all 4.3 billion addresses individually, it'd be a nightmare. However, this process can be made a lot easier by grouping addresses into something akin to a ZIP code.

One such range could be 74.125.113.0 to 74.125.113.255, which can be denoted as 74.125.133.0 /24 (the reason it's written that way isn't important for this example). Instead of having 256 routes, you can now say any of the addresses that fall into this range should get sent to Router X. Each router maintains what's called a "Routing Table," which is how it knows where to send what. Naturally, routers generally don't have paths for even every grouping of addresses, so there's also a default gateway where everything unknown get's sent. Having received the data, Router X will then look at its own Routing Table and send the information down the line until it eventually reaches it's destination. This generally involves going through a large number of routers and networks, each with their own routing information.

If Router X doesn't have a route for the IP (or its range), it'll sent it down its own default route until some router knows what to do with the data or the data reaches its expiration criteria. Actual criteria for expiration vary between the different routing protocols. One example is with RIP (residential routers generally use RIP or RIPv2), where data can travel no more than 15 "hops," with each hop being basically equivalent to data going from one router to another. This means that if you set up two routers on your network (and misconfigure them somehow), instead of data looping indefinitely, it would simply be discarded on the 16th hop). Note that global routers don't use RIP, so that 15-router limit is just an example and you aren't actually limited to 15 routers from your house to e.g. China. Once your data leaves your network, it likely gets encapsulated into a different routing protocol.

Global routing systems are generally very good at maintaining routes, so it's abnormal for a legitimate address to be unreachable. There are exceptions, of course, which is partially related to DNS propagation. There are two primary ways for a 'black hole' to occur. First, there are domain names and IPs. A domain name is e.g. www.google.com, while an IP is 74.125.113 99. Domain's are used because it's easier to remember a name than a series of numbers. If you a website changes their IP address, the DNS server that links the name and IP together has to also be updated. Since there are many DNS servers across the world, it can take time for this to propagate, especially for small websites.

The second way is ignorance, maliciousness, or a bit of both. Global routers all use a protocol called Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) to go between their own network and someone else's network (hence the name 'Border'). One problem with BGP is authenticating that someone advertising they have a route to a certain location actually does have a route (and that the route is as good as they claim it to be). Upstream providers (e.g. your ISP) are supposed to filter this information, but that's not always done effectively. There was one case where Pakistan actually knocked YouTube offline for ~2 hours doing this. Basically, YT wouldn't block access to Pakistan users, so Pakistan's government tried to change the routing for Pakistani users so that it would not be able to reach YT. What they actually did was advertise to the world that they had the best path to YT and their upstream provider allowed it to get sent out. For ~2 hours, the routers around the world all changed their routes to point to Pakistan, where the requests were simply discarded. It got resolved as quickly as it did because YT has round the clock monitoring and the clout to quickly get the routes fixed. Read more here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9878655-7.html

ISPs are generally assigned blocks of IP addresses which is somehow divided up by region (not 100% on how that works). The point is that the other routers between your personal network and the Internet know that any of the addresses in a certain ip range should get sent to your particular ISP. Your ISP is the only one who actually knows to send information for your specific IP address to your specific location (e.g. your house). Generally speaking, routers prefer more specific routes to more general routes, so having a route for your single IP address is more specific than having a route for the entire range of addresses. Thus, once your ISP receives something destined for a specific IP on their network, they can forward it to the customer in question.

This means that you can call up your ISP and have your IP changed to another address within that range and have minimal disruption in your service. The routing tables around the world will not need to be changed because it's still within the same grouping of addresses. It's as if you moved to a different house in your neighborhood. Mail sent from across the country would still know to direct it to the post office in your town and therefore would have no need to update their mailing routes.

DDoS attacks work by flooding more traffic into your network than it can handle. For residential and small business users, this isn't very much. Things like Google can however handle a huge volume of traffic. The normal response to a DoS attack is to just block traffic coming from the errant source, but DDoS circumvents that by having potentially thousands of different sources all spamming traffic to one location. Eventually, your router just can't keep up and you start losing data (either incoming or outgoing). There are methods that protect against DDoS, but a typical home user isn't going to have much or any of them.
twitch.tv/cratonz
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
February 12 2012 03:05 GMT
#3109
craton, thank you very much.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
Abenson
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Canada4122 Posts
February 12 2012 03:43 GMT
#3110
lol the explanation is surprisingly simple despite having to explain something so complex.
Nos-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada12016 Posts
February 12 2012 04:33 GMT
#3111
Argh watching Salce play Orianna really makes me want to get her. His clutch ultimates and usage of the ball for vision/defense/offence and general utility makes Orianna seem like an awesome hero to play.
Bronze player stuck in platinum
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-12 04:46:26
February 12 2012 04:40 GMT
#3112
watching this guy whose stream name is 'dominion high elo games'... wow, these guys are bad. haha. jabebot + his queue times confirm he is at the top of the dominion ladder but jeez the players there are pretty terrible.

He's like "so for those of you who are new to dominion, X [his opponent] is one of the best bottom players in the game, along with sauron and myself." I'm watching him play and thinking "this guy would be going even in his lane in like 1300..."
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
overt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States9006 Posts
February 12 2012 05:00 GMT
#3113
On February 12 2012 09:30 Shiv. wrote:
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.


Eh. It recommends getting Abyssal Scepter on Annie after Dcap/Void. I would almost always get Zhonya's and then Bveil, I can't think of a time I'd get Abyssal on Annie.

It looks cool and stuff but I don't agree with a few things on their site.
pschiu
Profile Joined April 2010
Singapore410 Posts
February 12 2012 05:03 GMT
#3114
On February 12 2012 13:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
watching this guy whose stream name is 'dominion high elo games'... wow, these guys are bad. haha. jabebot + his queue times confirm he is at the top of the dominion ladder but jeez the players there are pretty terrible.

He's like "so for those of you who are new to dominion, X [his opponent] is one of the best bottom players in the game, along with sauron and myself." I'm watching him play and thinking "this guy would be going even in his lane in like 1300..."


I watched it once. I screamed at N bad decisions every minute for about 20 minutes. I took a deep breath, turned off the stream, and took a long bath.
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
February 12 2012 05:08 GMT
#3115
On February 12 2012 11:38 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 12 2012 07:25 DoXa wrote:
but you can change your IP, right? or get dynamic IP's from you ISP? i'm bad at understanding these network things

+ Show Spoiler +
Let's see if I can explain this. Basically, there are a finite number of IP addresses which can be grouped in various ways.

IP addresses these days are typically IPv4, which are 32 bits long, which is 4,294,967,296 IP addresses. There's actually a bit less available in the public domain and the shortage of IP addresses is part of the reason the world is slowly migrating to IPv6, but I digress.

A typical public IP address might be something like 74.125.113.99 (in this case the IP of Google.com that faces the web). Notice that there are four groupings of numbers. As stated earlier, there are about 4.3 billion IP addresses. Consider a public IP address to be like a mailing address. If a single post office tried to keep track and route all 4.3 billion addresses individually, it'd be a nightmare. However, this process can be made a lot easier by grouping addresses into something akin to a ZIP code.

One such range could be 74.125.113.0 to 74.125.113.255, which can be denoted as 74.125.133.0 /24 (the reason it's written that way isn't important for this example). Instead of having 256 routes, you can now say any of the addresses that fall into this range should get sent to Router X. Each router maintains what's called a "Routing Table," which is how it knows where to send what. Naturally, routers generally don't have paths for even every grouping of addresses, so there's also a default gateway where everything unknown get's sent. Having received the data, Router X will then look at its own Routing Table and send the information down the line until it eventually reaches it's destination. This generally involves going through a large number of routers and networks, each with their own routing information.

If Router X doesn't have a route for the IP (or its range), it'll sent it down its own default route until some router knows what to do with the data or the data reaches its expiration criteria. Actual criteria for expiration vary between the different routing protocols. One example is with RIP (residential routers generally use RIP or RIPv2), where data can travel no more than 15 "hops," with each hop being basically equivalent to data going from one router to another. This means that if you set up two routers on your network (and misconfigure them somehow), instead of data looping indefinitely, it would simply be discarded on the 16th hop). Note that global routers don't use RIP, so that 15-router limit is just an example and you aren't actually limited to 15 routers from your house to e.g. China. Once your data leaves your network, it likely gets encapsulated into a different routing protocol.

Global routing systems are generally very good at maintaining routes, so it's abnormal for a legitimate address to be unreachable. There are exceptions, of course, which is partially related to DNS propagation. There are two primary ways for a 'black hole' to occur. First, there are domain names and IPs. A domain name is e.g. www.google.com, while an IP is 74.125.113 99. Domain's are used because it's easier to remember a name than a series of numbers. If you a website changes their IP address, the DNS server that links the name and IP together has to also be updated. Since there are many DNS servers across the world, it can take time for this to propagate, especially for small websites.

The second way is ignorance, maliciousness, or a bit of both. Global routers all use a protocol called Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) to go between their own network and someone else's network (hence the name 'Border'). One problem with BGP is authenticating that someone advertising they have a route to a certain location actually does have a route (and that the route is as good as they claim it to be). Upstream providers (e.g. your ISP) are supposed to filter this information, but that's not always done effectively. There was one case where Pakistan actually knocked YouTube offline for ~2 hours doing this. Basically, YT wouldn't block access to Pakistan users, so Pakistan's government tried to change the routing for Pakistani users so that it would not be able to reach YT. What they actually did was advertise to the world that they had the best path to YT and their upstream provider allowed it to get sent out. For ~2 hours, the routers around the world all changed their routes to point to Pakistan, where the requests were simply discarded. It got resolved as quickly as it did because YT has round the clock monitoring and the clout to quickly get the routes fixed. Read more here: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9878655-7.html

ISPs are generally assigned blocks of IP addresses which is somehow divided up by region (not 100% on how that works). The point is that the other routers between your personal network and the Internet know that any of the addresses in a certain ip range should get sent to your particular ISP. Your ISP is the only one who actually knows to send information for your specific IP address to your specific location (e.g. your house). Generally speaking, routers prefer more specific routes to more general routes, so having a route for your single IP address is more specific than having a route for the entire range of addresses. Thus, once your ISP receives something destined for a specific IP on their network, they can forward it to the customer in question.

This means that you can call up your ISP and have your IP changed to another address within that range and have minimal disruption in your service. The routing tables around the world will not need to be changed because it's still within the same grouping of addresses. It's as if you moved to a different house in your neighborhood. Mail sent from across the country would still know to direct it to the post office in your town and therefore would have no need to update their mailing routes.

DDoS attacks work by flooding more traffic into your network than it can handle. For residential and small business users, this isn't very much. Things like Google can however handle a huge volume of traffic. The normal response to a DoS attack is to just block traffic coming from the errant source, but DDoS circumvents that by having potentially thousands of different sources all spamming traffic to one location. Eventually, your router just can't keep up and you start losing data (either incoming or outgoing). There are methods that protect against DDoS, but a typical home user isn't going to have much or any of them.


This is by far the most clear explanation of IP addresses I've ever read before.
Hey! How you doin'?
anmolsinghmzn2009
Profile Joined June 2011
India1783 Posts
February 12 2012 05:10 GMT
#3116
Ok what are the general things I need to keep in mind when I'm the jungler and the opposite team has a jungle shaco?
Dunk first. Ask questions while dunking.
dignity
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada908 Posts
February 12 2012 05:17 GMT
#3117
On February 12 2012 14:10 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Ok what are the general things I need to keep in mind when I'm the jungler and the opposite team has a jungle shaco?


Prepare counterganks. Shaco is really squishy and really open once he deceives.
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
February 12 2012 05:18 GMT
#3118
On February 12 2012 13:40 UniversalSnip wrote:
watching this guy whose stream name is 'dominion high elo games'... wow, these guys are bad. haha. jabebot + his queue times confirm he is at the top of the dominion ladder but jeez the players there are pretty terrible.

He's like "so for those of you who are new to dominion, X [his opponent] is one of the best bottom players in the game, along with sauron and myself." I'm watching him play and thinking "this guy would be going even in his lane in like 1300..."


There are always these funny communities in tiny games or games nobody takes seriously, there is a whole group of people who just want to be the best, but not actually work and become the best...they just find a tiny little pool where they and their buddies can call each other #1

In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Hyren
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States817 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-12 05:23:05
February 12 2012 05:19 GMT
#3119
On February 12 2012 09:30 Shiv. wrote:
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.


While some have been quite good, I've been noticing some inconsistincies/confusing advice/contradictions in others. Item recommendations are sometimes completely different or else very unclear, as well as runes/masteries/ability leveling.

example: SYDTKO gangplank- Philostone/Ionian Boots as core on "item builds" after showing cloth+5 -> boots -> doran's on the quickguide. :/ The "quickguide" tab throws in Infinity Edge and LW before any tankiness while the "item build" at least recommends Atmogs first unless you are really fed. About Ionian Boots he says "Boots of Lucidity are probably the best boots to get on Gangplank, I don't see taking any other option on him" but he shows Ninja Tabi in the quick guide. Recommends flat armour seals but calls health per level seals "the best choice on gangplank" because "it adds about 3.5 damage with the yellows having an Atma's Impaler" but then says you need armor yellows against bruisers.
Power-tripping mod for Trump's stream
emperorchampion
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada9496 Posts
February 12 2012 05:23 GMT
#3120
On February 12 2012 09:30 Shiv. wrote:
I guess this belongs in GD:

What do you think of Elementz' new guide site?
I have skimmed through a guide or two and they cover everything from basic stuff to champs. They have videos and their guide design is really appealing once you've figured it out. I'm really enjoying this so far.

They should've gotten Smash to write the Jarman guide :D
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