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Public Service AnnouncementUse the Champion threads whenever appropriate. Don't use General Discussion simply out of ease. ===== If you want to whine about server lag, use the QQ thread. We all suffer alike when Riot servers kaput. No need to make a post about it in GD. |
On January 26 2012 04:27 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:20 Xevious wrote:On January 26 2012 03:42 Shiv. wrote:A cool post about some stuff you might not have known about LoLEdit: On January 26 2012 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 26 2012 02:57 Kenpachi wrote:On January 26 2012 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
My god.
If only Ezreal were, you know, playable. Well, I could always try to master jungle ez I guess. damn oddone fan scum Not just TOO. The vast majority of high elo opinions I have heard all tend to agree. To be fair, the vast majority of high elo opinions tended to agree Shyvana was garbage, pre-blind-nerf-Corki was just not up there any more, Cass/Irelia were bad, Tiger Udyr is the way to go in the jungle... I don't know. I'm not even saying Ezreal is good, I don't like him all that much myself. But I think there's a lot of bandwagoning going on at the pro scene and they don't put as much effort in theorycrafting as professionals for other games tend to do. WoW comes to mind, where people mathcraft optimal item combinations all the time. That's because theorycrafting and mathcraft is basically the entire game of WoW PvE, and it's expected that any player in a decent raiding guild (top 250 US) does everything possible to get as much damage as possible out of their character. In LoL high elo players use sub-optimal setups all the time, be it because they don't have IP for runes/pages or they don't care and would rather just play the game. (i'm not trying to bash WoW in case it came across that way, i played in a top 100 US guild for two years and pre-game setup just has so much more impact) Don't worry, it's no bashing at all. And if i highly respected something during my 6 years on WoW, it's PvE theorycrafters elite. Those guy at Elitistjerk scared the shit out of me with so much math.
I used to be one of the theorycrafters at ElitistJerks. Here's my perspective.
Theorycrafting in LoL is so rare because the game is too dynamic. There isn't a consistent frame of reference from which to build a model. You can plot out the optimal build for clearing the jungle as a given champion, but that's only useful while you're clearing camps. The reason junglers run MR glyphs despite the existence of Attack Speed glyphs isn't because MR helps them jungle faster or take less damage in the jungle, but because clearing the camps is only one small part of the game.
Theorycrafting is so prevalent in WoW because raiding is far more static. The boss and each class' mechanics are the same week to week, all that changes are items. As such, calculating optimal builds, rotations and the like is possible.
Theorycrafting can and should be used to inform decisions in LoL, but it will not and can not have the same prominence and authority as it does in WoW.
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On January 26 2012 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Watching hotshot play ap leona, pretty fucking lulzies.
i wonder how that's going for him...
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On January 26 2012 04:45 Xevious wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Watching hotshot play ap leona, pretty fucking lulzies. i wonder how that's going for him...
he destroyed the enemy team.
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On January 26 2012 04:43 Dgiese wrote:
Server's fucked for anyone else?
yes. EU though
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Fixed now... They were down for a minute... I swear.
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SaintVicious and Doublelift arguing about the merits of support heimer... surprisingly interesting and informative conversation / argument.
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On January 26 2012 04:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:45 Xevious wrote:On January 26 2012 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Watching hotshot play ap leona, pretty fucking lulzies. i wonder how that's going for him... he destroyed the enemy team.
Got Runes/Masteries/Build/Lane? This interests me greatly.
On January 26 2012 04:45 Seuss wrote:
I used to be one of the theorycrafters at ElitistJerks. Here's my perspective.
Theorycrafting in LoL is so rare because the game is too dynamic. There isn't a consistent frame of reference from which to build a model. [...] Theorycrafting can and should be used to inform decisions in LoL, but it will not and can not have the same prominence and authority as it does in WoW.
If you liked the long design and theory posts I used to make, you're gonna love the new stuff I've been thinking about. If you don't.... then eh sorry. Tell me what you don't like pl0x. ^^
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On January 26 2012 04:47 Dgiese wrote:
Fixed now... They were down for a minute... I swear.
it had a mini crash.. fucked up everyone in my game and we had to reconnect. Just 1 guy was in game and destroyed all the towers
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On January 26 2012 03:42 Shiv. wrote:A cool post about some stuff you might not have known about LoLEdit: Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 26 2012 02:57 Kenpachi wrote:On January 26 2012 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
My god.
If only Ezreal were, you know, playable. Well, I could always try to master jungle ez I guess. damn oddone fan scum Not just TOO. The vast majority of high elo opinions I have heard all tend to agree. To be fair, the vast majority of high elo opinions tended to agree Shyvana was garbage, pre-blind-nerf-Corki was just not up there any more, Cass/Irelia were bad, Tiger Udyr is the way to go in the jungle... I don't know. I'm not even saying Ezreal is good, I don't like him all that much myself. But I think there's a lot of bandwagoning going on at the pro scene and they don't put as much effort in theorycrafting as professionals for other games tend to do. WoW comes to mind, where people mathcraft optimal item combinations all the time.
Haha, brings back memories. They missed a few good ones like teleporting/zhonyas while in Anivia egg, bloodrazors stacking and just melting baron (WW solo), Heimer's grenade hitting turrets and a few others. Good times.
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On January 26 2012 04:45 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:27 Noocta wrote:On January 26 2012 04:20 Xevious wrote:On January 26 2012 03:42 Shiv. wrote:A cool post about some stuff you might not have known about LoLEdit: On January 26 2012 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 26 2012 02:57 Kenpachi wrote:On January 26 2012 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
My god.
If only Ezreal were, you know, playable. Well, I could always try to master jungle ez I guess. damn oddone fan scum Not just TOO. The vast majority of high elo opinions I have heard all tend to agree. To be fair, the vast majority of high elo opinions tended to agree Shyvana was garbage, pre-blind-nerf-Corki was just not up there any more, Cass/Irelia were bad, Tiger Udyr is the way to go in the jungle... I don't know. I'm not even saying Ezreal is good, I don't like him all that much myself. But I think there's a lot of bandwagoning going on at the pro scene and they don't put as much effort in theorycrafting as professionals for other games tend to do. WoW comes to mind, where people mathcraft optimal item combinations all the time. That's because theorycrafting and mathcraft is basically the entire game of WoW PvE, and it's expected that any player in a decent raiding guild (top 250 US) does everything possible to get as much damage as possible out of their character. In LoL high elo players use sub-optimal setups all the time, be it because they don't have IP for runes/pages or they don't care and would rather just play the game. (i'm not trying to bash WoW in case it came across that way, i played in a top 100 US guild for two years and pre-game setup just has so much more impact) Don't worry, it's no bashing at all. And if i highly respected something during my 6 years on WoW, it's PvE theorycrafters elite. Those guy at Elitistjerk scared the shit out of me with so much math. I used to be one of the theorycrafters at ElitistJerks. Here's my perspective. Theorycrafting in LoL is so rare because the game is too dynamic. There isn't a consistent frame of reference from which to build a model. You can plot out the optimal build for clearing the jungle as a given champion, but that's only useful while you're clearing camps. The reason junglers run MR glyphs despite the existence of Attack Speed glyphs isn't because MR helps them jungle faster or take less damage in the jungle, but because clearing the camps is only one small part of the game. Theorycrafting is so prevalent in WoW because raiding is far more static. The boss and each class' mechanics are the same week to week, all that changes are items. As such, calculating optimal builds, rotations and the like is possible. Theorycrafting can and should be used to inform decisions in LoL, but it will not and can not have the same prominence and authority as it does in WoW.
Agreed for the most part, but even simple stuff like AD reds because ''they are better with the new masteries'' are commonly used without anyone having the math to back it up. If you've seen Yango's posts about them, it's pretty obvious to me that from a teamfight perspective, they are highly suboptimal. (Let's not get into this discussion again please, it was just an example to get my point across.)
I have played WoW for 5 years and theorycrafted a lot myself, was a avid follower of the ElitistJerks forums, even though I always considered myself a PvP player. But even those have calculations for which gems you want to use where, which chest/weapon enchants are the best etc. I feel a lot of choices professional LoL players make are based on opinions that are commonly agreed on, but usually without any numbers to back those up.
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On January 26 2012 04:53 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:47 Dgiese wrote:
Fixed now... They were down for a minute... I swear. it had a mini crash.. fucked up everyone in my game and we had to reconnect. Just 1 guy was in game and destroyed all the towers
happened again ~_~
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Yeah my game is getting dropped too :[
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On January 26 2012 04:53 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:46 wei2coolman wrote:On January 26 2012 04:45 Xevious wrote:On January 26 2012 04:38 wei2coolman wrote:
Watching hotshot play ap leona, pretty fucking lulzies. i wonder how that's going for him... he destroyed the enemy team. Got Runes/Masteries/Build/Lane? This interests me greatly. Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:45 Seuss wrote:
I used to be one of the theorycrafters at ElitistJerks. Here's my perspective.
Theorycrafting in LoL is so rare because the game is too dynamic. There isn't a consistent frame of reference from which to build a model. [...] Theorycrafting can and should be used to inform decisions in LoL, but it will not and can not have the same prominence and authority as it does in WoW. If you liked the long design and theory posts I used to make, you're gonna love the new stuff I've been thinking about. If you don't.... then eh sorry. Tell me what you don't like pl0x. ^^
I've enjoyed your old design/theory posts, but we should be careful to properly separate theory from theorycraft. The former is very high level and sometimes abstract. The latter is very mathematical and extremely specific.
On January 26 2012 05:03 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:45 Seuss wrote:On January 26 2012 04:27 Noocta wrote:On January 26 2012 04:20 Xevious wrote:On January 26 2012 03:42 Shiv. wrote:A cool post about some stuff you might not have known about LoLEdit: On January 26 2012 03:18 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 26 2012 02:57 Kenpachi wrote:On January 26 2012 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
My god.
If only Ezreal were, you know, playable. Well, I could always try to master jungle ez I guess. damn oddone fan scum Not just TOO. The vast majority of high elo opinions I have heard all tend to agree. To be fair, the vast majority of high elo opinions tended to agree Shyvana was garbage, pre-blind-nerf-Corki was just not up there any more, Cass/Irelia were bad, Tiger Udyr is the way to go in the jungle... I don't know. I'm not even saying Ezreal is good, I don't like him all that much myself. But I think there's a lot of bandwagoning going on at the pro scene and they don't put as much effort in theorycrafting as professionals for other games tend to do. WoW comes to mind, where people mathcraft optimal item combinations all the time. That's because theorycrafting and mathcraft is basically the entire game of WoW PvE, and it's expected that any player in a decent raiding guild (top 250 US) does everything possible to get as much damage as possible out of their character. In LoL high elo players use sub-optimal setups all the time, be it because they don't have IP for runes/pages or they don't care and would rather just play the game. (i'm not trying to bash WoW in case it came across that way, i played in a top 100 US guild for two years and pre-game setup just has so much more impact) Don't worry, it's no bashing at all. And if i highly respected something during my 6 years on WoW, it's PvE theorycrafters elite. Those guy at Elitistjerk scared the shit out of me with so much math. I used to be one of the theorycrafters at ElitistJerks. Here's my perspective. Theorycrafting in LoL is so rare because the game is too dynamic. There isn't a consistent frame of reference from which to build a model. You can plot out the optimal build for clearing the jungle as a given champion, but that's only useful while you're clearing camps. The reason junglers run MR glyphs despite the existence of Attack Speed glyphs isn't because MR helps them jungle faster or take less damage in the jungle, but because clearing the camps is only one small part of the game. Theorycrafting is so prevalent in WoW because raiding is far more static. The boss and each class' mechanics are the same week to week, all that changes are items. As such, calculating optimal builds, rotations and the like is possible. Theorycrafting can and should be used to inform decisions in LoL, but it will not and can not have the same prominence and authority as it does in WoW. Agreed for the most part, but even simple stuff like AD reds because ''they are better with the new masteries'' are commonly used without anyone having the math to back it up. If you've seen Yango's posts about them, it's pretty obvious to me that from a teamfight perspective, they are highly suboptimal. (Let's not get into this discussion again please, it was just an example to get my point across.) I have played WoW for 5 years and theorycrafted a lot myself, was a avid follower of the ElitistJerks forums, even though I always considered myself a PvP player. But even those have calculations for which gems you want to use where, which chest/weapon enchants are the best etc. I feel a lot of choices professional LoL players make are based on opinions that are commonly agreed on, but usually without any numbers to back those up.
I'd agree that despite the fact that theorycrafting in LoL is more difficult and unlikely to be as central a part of the game, there's a definitive lack of gumption on the part of the community to actually sit down and do math or test things out. For example, I'm apparently the first and only person who could be bothered to determine the exact numbers behind the new jungle's scaling and banking mechanics. I'm not aware of anything beyond ggChronicle's articles that had even a shred of data on banking or scaling prior to my compendium.
EDIT: Hah, apparently if you search for "jungle remake scaling" on google the compendium thread is the first hit.
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On January 26 2012 05:04 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 04:53 Kenpachi wrote:On January 26 2012 04:47 Dgiese wrote:
Fixed now... They were down for a minute... I swear. it had a mini crash.. fucked up everyone in my game and we had to reconnect. Just 1 guy was in game and destroyed all the towers happened again ~_~
Happened for me too. Thankfully he was on my team this time
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On January 26 2012 04:51 Dgiese wrote:
SaintVicious and Doublelift arguing about the merits of support heimer... surprisingly interesting and informative conversation / argument.
Well SV usually always has quite a big repertoire of arguments for all of his ideas.
In fact he is playing support heimer again this gaem. And he gave fb!
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Funny line by SV:
Does Irelia beat Shyvana in lane? Yes. But does Rainman's Irelia beat Shyvana in lane? The answer is no. That's thinking objectively.
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On January 26 2012 05:31 starfries wrote:
Funny line by SV:
Does Irelia beat Shyvana in lane? Yes. But does Rainman's Irelia beat Shyvana in lane? The answer is no. That's thinking objectively.
i lol'd pretty hard when he said that.
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Listening to Double try to argue with SV is like listening to a high school physics student try to argue with Stephen Hawking.
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TOO wondering why Ryze's building a WotA? Wut? x)
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On January 26 2012 05:41 Two_DoWn wrote:
Listening to Double try to argue with SV is like listening to a high school physics student try to argue with Stephen Hawking.
Yeah, pretty much.
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EPT
