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On January 06 2012 17:25 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 16:38 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 16:00 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill. While there may be merit in tanky Cassiopeia, if you think Cassiopeia with Deathcap/standard AP build can "only burst one person down" you have no idea what Cassiopeia does. Her Q is on a 3 second without cdr. Her entire skillset with the exception of her ulti is extremely spammable and that's why she does hella sustained damage. Standard AP Cassiopeia is not powerful because she can burst down 1 or 2 people. It's powerful because she can burst down an entire team in quick succession. Yes, Cassio is really squishy if played standard AP, but her skillset also lets her kite extraordinarily well. The movement speed boost from her Q is amazing combined with her long cast ranges let her kite extremely easily, especially with Rylais. Also, if you're using your ulti and you only hit 1 person, you're using it wrong. Regardless of what elo you're at. Cassiopeia ulti is best used, imo, as counter-initiation. You shouldn't be played Cassiopeia the way you play Annie with flash-combo on their backline. You play Cassiopeia similar to how you play range AD. Hit what you can because anything you can touch will simply melt. EDIT: Something important I forgot to mention is that if you have sustained damage, then you want to sustain in a fight, which is why you build tanky, ie Ryze. It doesn't matter how much high sustained damage in a fight you have if you die quickly. Like I said earlier though, you're overestimating how much damage Deathcap gives you. Late game Cassiopeia is fully capable of bursting an entire team down only having 300 AP as well, the difference is that if a target pulls their escape in a teamfight, you can keep chasing them if you are decked out with HP mr and armor, but if you're not, even if you can do your damage faster, you won't kill them. Also, I'm going to argue that, you should Flash ult to initiate on Cassiopeia. Because if you can't, why not just play Brand, does hella damage as well, and if you have Rylais that's also a lot of slow ticks. You can't expect to live if you get initiated on, even if you do ult, you'll have to flash out to keep attacking because of how squishy you are. And if you say you can just keep attacking, then that's like saying AD carries shouldn't flash out when they start getting focused lol. Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception. You're not Ryze, you can't peel everyone attacking you with your W and spellvamp everything back You're not Xerath, you can't kill people before they can even touch you You're not Karthus, you need to live You're not Brand, you can't do a combo that takes 1 second to fully cast and then run back and wait for another chance to do it TL;DR IF YOU BUILD FULL AP ON CASSIOPEIA YOU'RE AN AD CARRY WHO DOES AP DAMAGE IF YOU BUILD TANKY ON CASSIOPEIA THEN YOU'RE A BRUISER WHO DOES AP DAMAGE Either way, it's enough AP damage for your team, just keep in mind that her kit is amazing for initiation and chasing which is something that is amazing on bruisers, not so much AD carries. (You don't see Tristana jumping into a full item team, unless you're watching locodoco that is) EDIT2: @Two_Down, it's not to ensure that you can sustain in a fight as much as it is to ensure that you can initiate a fight, focus 1 target with E regardless of their position, and have at least a small chance at living to tell the tale. A full AP cass although definitely capable of taking an entire team to half with ult + w + q, will never get into a situation where she can do so unless a team is facechecking a brush. Tanky Cass can flash in and do it easy peasy. I've never tried or even seen tanky Cass until today with the SK v. TSM scrim. In that game, the build used by Ocelot was a perfect counter to TSM's composition and situation. I'm not saying tanky Cass doesn't work or it's inferior as I've never used it. With Jiji's build of Wota rush, you have comparable spellvamp to Ryze, especially if your team is running double wota. Ofc, Ryze is still going to out-sustain Cassiopeia in fights due to his ulti, but to say Cassio has no sustain in fights is false. Flash+ulting with Cassiopeia is not optimal and should only be done to catch someone out of position. The cast time on your ulti is pretty substantial and it's not hard to dodge. Not to mention flash+ulting is tricky since in the time it takes to cast if your targets turn around you just screwed yourself. It's a risky maneuver that can work out very well for you, but it's safer and more consistent to use her ulti as counter-initiation or in the middle of a fight where there is much less chance for someone to dodge it on purpose or by accident. Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception. I completely disagree with this part. Cassio has the highest sustained damage out of all of these champions by far. Those champions you named outclass Cassio in different aspects. Ryze is tanky and is impossible to kill a la bruiser style. Xerath is long range poker who outputs consistent damage with strong burst in his ultimate, but once his ulti is used his damage is pretty mediocre. Karthus can aoe an entire enemy team unhindered because of his passive. Brand is good not because his combo does a lot of damage with a full item build, it does, but he's strong because his laning and early-mid game is absurd. Brand most definitely falls off lategame in terms of damage. Cassiopeia has a 0.9 AP ratio on her Q with 3 second base cd and a 0.55 AP ratio on her E which has basically no cooldown. Her raw sustained damage scaling is completely unmatched by any champion in the game. If you use your ulti for counter-initiation + rylais you can most definitely peel people off of you. You said it exactly right in your tldr. If you go full AP, you must play as an AD carry, but you output far far more sustained damage than if you go tanky. Positioning and a good teamcomp is extremely key to being successful with full AP Cassiopeia, but I can guarantee you with good positioning and a good teamcomp you'll be much stronger going full AP. I can turn your argument and ask why don't you just build AD carries tanky? Same reasoning behind tanky Cassio; you still do damage and you can worry less about being blown up. I will add that, in the double AP meta or even just the whole glass cannon trend with Pantheon and Tryndamere becoming more popular, with a considerably weaker frontline than the "traditional" atmogs-on-half-your-team compositions, it's probably more useful to build Cassiopeia somewhat tanky as there's a weaker frontline keeping shit off of you so you will need to be able to take more punishment. As the meta changes, builds and playstyles have to change, and perhaps tanky Cassiopeia is a necessary one. you don't build AD carries tanky because if you do then they do way less damage. Since AD/AS/Crit all stack off of each other... AP is linear, you're missing only 300AP~ worth of damage at a full build which is like less than 200~ damage on Q once you factor in resists. Whilst you will be easily 4xing your survivability. If you built tank on Vayne, you're missing out on almost 2k damage a second on average. Like you've said so many times, Cassiopeia is sustained damage implying that the longer the fight goes on, the better she does. Well building tanky drags the fight out. I'm not saying that AP Cass doesn't do a shit ton of damage, and is amazing with good positioning. I'm saying that Tank cass does almost as much, and is able to initiate fights and overextend for high priority targets. Just test it, Tank Cass out damages so so many AP champions without building AP. It's completely retarded, and after watching Reginald dominate several games with <100 AP cass going like 20-3, I might try that from now on. :/ EDIT: You know what, actually I'm thinking Merc Treads + Warmogs + Mallet + Atmas + FoN +PD with 40% attack speed rune page would be yummy. LOL Although, you'd get destroyed in lane while trying to build a warmogs =(
Again, I've never done it and I've only just seen it, so maybe you're right and tanky Cassio is better.
The AD comparison was flawed I admit because of multipliers like crit. But keep in mind that while having 300 less AP only translates to ~200 damage per Q or E, Cassio's extremely low/near non-existent cooldowns make that ~200 damage build up really really fast.
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I'd say both builds have their merits and it finally depends on the situation. If you have a really beefy frontline with loads of cc u can afford to build a little squishier, if not go more tanky.
It also depends on the playstyle really. I'm more comfortable with bruisers and mages like ryze & swain. Some people are good enough to position themselves well enough to play squishy. I feel more comfortable with the tanky in-your-face style of play.
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Phreak as 5th.
Let's see how it goes.
Nope someone dodged on other team and now he's on the other team.
And I'm going against 2200 Riven lol.
Result: jungle Shyv gets first blooded by Riven while I was beating her in lane with shen. Game is still okay until we lost 4 at dragon and lose dragon and after that it's spiraling out of control.
EDIT: Should add that Shyv was a pubbie and us four were on vent.
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How does jungle shyv get killed by enemy riven, failed towerdive?
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Baa?21243 Posts
On January 06 2012 19:19 Wala.Revolution wrote:
EDIT: Should add that Shyv was a pubbie and us four were on vent.
Except no one was saying anything lol, in addition to me cutting out apparently?
And no it wasn't a tower dive Jarvan was counterganking after stopping by mid, so 2v2?
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Dan feeding on the enemy jungler.
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On January 06 2012 15:19 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:16 dignity wrote:
If you are poking with Q/W as viktor you are doing something wrong. Why call a champion garbage if you are not even playing him properly. So poke with E, the skill you can see coming from a mile away? Oh, and it isn't a drain on mana or anything, which Viktor already has problems with.
E has a ton of range and if you walk it properly is quite hard to dodge, making it a good poke. The fact that when the enemy team is standing defending a tower a single walked line can hit a bunch of people HARD makes it an insane poke. I havent had a single mid matchup where I felt disadvantaged, altho a good Brand gave me about equal game today till I got my ult, at which point I was able to dominate. I'll say it again, I'm not the best player and I'm doing REALLY well with this guy, just give him a chance.
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The cast animation is too slow, the Q range is too low and the shield comes back slow aswell. The W range is too short aswell. Its just all a little meh. He will get some buffs.
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I hope not ^^ I'm fine with him as he is and it's never fun playing a champ everyone thinks is OP, since even if you completely outplay your opponent you'll still get "Yeah right, just an op champ, noob" to the face. Anyway, with the amount of flak he's getting I guess I'm just playing piss-poor opponents ^^
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On January 06 2012 21:06 Promises wrote:
I hope not ^^ I'm fine with him as he is and it's never fun playing a champ everyone thinks is OP, since even if you completely outplay your opponent you'll still get "Yeah right, just an op champ, noob" to the face. Anyway, with the amount of flak he's getting I guess I'm just playing piss-poor opponents ^^
there are two ways of dealing with a failure/loss:
1. What should I have done differently to prevent that?
2. What can I blame externally to prevent self-criticism?
I guess we all use both approaches, while the first one leads to improvement and the second to frustration. You can't change the way people are approaching a failure so don't even try to. If the fact that you had a fun game that you even won is not sadisfying enough for you, when you don't get a humble 'wp' from your opponent then just think about the fact that your moving on improving and having fun not being stuck in frustration.
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So guys im quite interested in the good ol' days kind of question for the community.
Who was your first main champion you stuck onto (Pretty much saying; your first champion your playing a lot) You could still be playing that character idk, doesn't matter, any why?
Mine was Ryze.
Lightning balls of death, always tank never die.
Now I don't play him anymore.
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Morgana. Looked at the portraits for something that'd make me say "Hey he's got face, let's see his kit too", ended up looking mostly on female champs because in DotA the heroes I played the most were female (Drow ranger, etc.), set up on Morg or Janna after looking at the kits, bought blindly, used only her andIrelia until level 20+ (apart from free weeks champs).
I don't play her anymore because she's permabanned. :[ Got her yesterday so one opponent dodged. Meh.
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Orianna. I was lvl3 and watched the bans of a recent tourney and she was always banned, so I figured I'd give it a try...
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I didn't have a main really, I play tons of champions - like around 15-20 and try whatever is free but when I wanna go pure tryhard after losing couple of stupid games in a row I play warwick or ryze.
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Probably Malz, but I just played free shit for a long time.
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Gangplank. Played him forever... like.. if I could still see my top played for normal games I think I would have around 400-500 games played as Gangplank hahaha.
And then Ezreal when he came out and tbh those are still my most favourite champions to play and the champions I feel most comfortable playing haha. 
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Mine was TF in the beta. I just loved his skill set (plus it was just a little bit OP).
I also played Zilean non-stop for a long while after he came out. CDR with boots5 just charging around the map res-ing team members all day. So much fun. Plus, I used to have people actually appreciating being saved, which doesn't happen all that much these days. 
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Rammus <3 rolling everywhere at high speeds was the best. first champ i bought. now he's almost instaban in ranked :/
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On January 06 2012 21:44 RogerX wrote:
So guys im quite interested in the good ol' days kind of question for the community.
Who was your first main champion you stuck onto (Pretty much saying; your first champion your playing a lot) You could still be playing that character idk, doesn't matter, any why?
Mine was Ryze.
Lightning balls of death, always tank never die.
Now I don't play him anymore.
Katarina. Loved her passive from the get-go, liked the rest of her kit, too. Then, I discovered you're supposed to skip Rylai's and straight up build a gunblade. Never looked back and sticked with her for 10+ levels.
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Kayle, because everyone liked having her on the team and I didn't have to fight over mid. I went bot, farmed up my rageblade after 30 minutes or so and ulted myself at full health in fights.
I actually got so good at self-casting R that sometimes when I meant to try and save someone I'd ult myself by accident.
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EPT
