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On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap?
it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage.
Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage.
EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill.
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On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill.
That's really interesting, I've been playing a lot of cass lately so I think I'll give it a shot.
edit: so a build might look like boots3 -> 1 or 2 dorans -> wota -> more defensive items?
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I've thought for the longest time that the strongest cassiopeia build consists of tear(AA), wota, rylai, banshees, frozen heart.
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Posted this in the Udyr thread, but it's a bit dead around this time. Anyone play Udyr in Dominion at all? If so, what build do you use?
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On January 06 2012 15:45 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill. That's really interesting, I've been playing a lot of cass lately so I think I'll give it a shot. edit: so a build might look like boots3 -> 1 or 2 dorans -> wota -> more defensive items?
The thing so amazing about Cassiopeia is that a skilled player with like 5k gold of items will be able to do more DPS than an average Cassiopeia with 10k gold worth of items in a teamfight.
Her damage potential exceeds even Karthus as an AP carry.
it's also a good thing to note that the only time TSM ever runs Cassiopeia with straight DCap is when Rain Man is playing Yorick for the ults on Cassiopeia
The builds I've seen that work great many times from pros are
Chauster's Catalyst -> Merc Treads -> RoA -> Rylais -> Dcap
Rain Man's weird as fuck ass Sorc boots + triple dorans and catalyst into Dcap/Rylais/Banshees
Jiji's boots/triple dorans and wota into whatever he sees first in the AP item list huehuehue
and like maybe Regi's wota warmogs LOL
Other builds that are situationally good, but get you raped against teams that have longer range than your E
Sorc boots/Tear/Wota first
Sorc boots/3x doran rings/dcap
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On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill.
While there may be merit in tanky Cassiopeia, if you think Cassiopeia with Deathcap/standard AP build can "only burst one person down" you have no idea what Cassiopeia does. Her Q is on a 3 second without cdr. Her entire skillset with the exception of her ulti is extremely spammable and that's why she does hella sustained damage. Standard AP Cassiopeia is not powerful because she can burst down 1 or 2 people. It's powerful because she can burst down an entire team in quick succession. Yes, Cassio is really squishy if played standard AP, but her skillset also lets her kite extraordinarily well. The movement speed boost from her Q is amazing combined with her long cast ranges let her kite extremely easily, especially with Rylais.
Also, if you're using your ulti and you only hit 1 person, you're using it wrong. Regardless of what elo you're at. Cassiopeia ulti is best used, imo, as counter-initiation. You shouldn't be played Cassiopeia the way you play Annie with flash-combo on their backline. You play Cassiopeia similar to how you play range AD. Hit what you can because anything you can touch will simply melt.
Also, I don't think TSM has played Cassiopeia in a really long time. Last time I saw jiji play Cassio, he went 2-3 drings into wota into dcap or rylais depending on how much farm he has and his team's composition.
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The reason it works is because cass and ryze arent ap casters. They are magic damage bruisers. Mathematically you need a LOT of ap to have the comparison between suped up qs and just hitting MORE of them by staying alive/in the fight longer. Its why you get warmogs on Nocturne and GP. Same idea.
Now, cass is a bit different from ryze because her ult and a faceroll combo does actually account for quite a bit of burst if you chose to build ap. Neither build is necessarily better, because an ap centric build will always be superior if you can stay alive throughout a fight, wheras tanky ensures that you will.
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On January 06 2012 15:01 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:06 ControlMonkey wrote:On January 06 2012 12:19 starfries wrote:On January 06 2012 11:54 sob3k wrote:
Ok guys, new question.
Who is the most boring champ to play in Leagues?
I vote:
1.Yorick, no skillshots, spam little ghouls that you dont control. No combos and ult is basically just more autoattacking
2. Mundo, yeah, you throw cleavers, not enough to save him from 3 other skills that are all passive boosts
3. Skarner, You get a mini moment of glory every time ult is up, but other than that his entire gameplay consists of mashing QWQWQWQWQWQWQWQ, still OP I think Nasus is pretty boring ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vAU3K.png) 1. LOL 2. I like Nasus. He's just a giant timebomb waiting to 1 shot squishies. To be fair, the boring nature of Nasus while farming turns into the AWESOME NOT BORING AT ALL nature of Nasus just destroying all life. "We will live, they will die" indeed. You could always go AP nasus and try to 1shot an inhib, totally doable(and no I don't mean in some hour and 20 minute long game where your Q is +2000).
Wut, AP nasus oneshot inhib? How?
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On January 06 2012 16:07 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:01 red_ wrote:On January 06 2012 14:06 ControlMonkey wrote:On January 06 2012 12:19 starfries wrote:On January 06 2012 11:54 sob3k wrote:
Ok guys, new question.
Who is the most boring champ to play in Leagues?
I vote:
1.Yorick, no skillshots, spam little ghouls that you dont control. No combos and ult is basically just more autoattacking
2. Mundo, yeah, you throw cleavers, not enough to save him from 3 other skills that are all passive boosts
3. Skarner, You get a mini moment of glory every time ult is up, but other than that his entire gameplay consists of mashing QWQWQWQWQWQWQWQ, still OP I think Nasus is pretty boring 1. LOL 2. I like Nasus. He's just a giant timebomb waiting to 1 shot squishies. To be fair, the boring nature of Nasus while farming turns into the AWESOME NOT BORING AT ALL nature of Nasus just destroying all life. "We will live, they will die" indeed. You could always go AP nasus and try to 1shot an inhib, totally doable(and no I don't mean in some hour and 20 minute long game where your Q is +2000). Wut, AP nasus oneshot inhib? How?
Lich bane+q stack
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On January 06 2012 16:07 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:01 red_ wrote:On January 06 2012 14:06 ControlMonkey wrote:On January 06 2012 12:19 starfries wrote:On January 06 2012 11:54 sob3k wrote:
Ok guys, new question.
Who is the most boring champ to play in Leagues?
I vote:
1.Yorick, no skillshots, spam little ghouls that you dont control. No combos and ult is basically just more autoattacking
2. Mundo, yeah, you throw cleavers, not enough to save him from 3 other skills that are all passive boosts
3. Skarner, You get a mini moment of glory every time ult is up, but other than that his entire gameplay consists of mashing QWQWQWQWQWQWQWQ, still OP I think Nasus is pretty boring 1. LOL 2. I like Nasus. He's just a giant timebomb waiting to 1 shot squishies. To be fair, the boring nature of Nasus while farming turns into the AWESOME NOT BORING AT ALL nature of Nasus just destroying all life. "We will live, they will die" indeed. You could always go AP nasus and try to 1shot an inhib, totally doable(and no I don't mean in some hour and 20 minute long game where your Q is +2000). Wut, AP nasus oneshot inhib? How?
AP items + Lichbane + Q.
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On January 06 2012 16:00 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill. While there may be merit in tanky Cassiopeia, if you think Cassiopeia with Deathcap/standard AP build can "only burst one person down" you have no idea what Cassiopeia does. Her Q is on a 3 second without cdr. Her entire skillset with the exception of her ulti is extremely spammable and that's why she does hella sustained damage. Standard AP Cassiopeia is not powerful because she can burst down 1 or 2 people. It's powerful because she can burst down an entire team in quick succession. Yes, Cassio is really squishy if played standard AP, but her skillset also lets her kite extraordinarily well. The movement speed boost from her Q is amazing combined with her long cast ranges let her kite extremely easily, especially with Rylais. Also, if you're using your ulti and you only hit 1 person, you're using it wrong. Regardless of what elo you're at. Cassiopeia ulti is best used, imo, as counter-initiation. You shouldn't be played Cassiopeia the way you play Annie with flash-combo on their backline. You play Cassiopeia similar to how you play range AD. Hit what you can because anything you can touch will simply melt.
EDIT: Something important I forgot to mention is that if you have sustained damage, then you want to sustain in a fight, which is why you build tanky, ie Ryze. It doesn't matter how much high sustained damage in a fight you have if you die quickly.
Like I said earlier though, you're overestimating how much damage Deathcap gives you. Late game Cassiopeia is fully capable of bursting an entire team down only having 300 AP as well, the difference is that if a target pulls their escape in a teamfight, you can keep chasing them if you are decked out with HP mr and armor, but if you're not, even if you can do your damage faster, you won't kill them.
Also, I'm going to argue that, you should Flash ult to initiate on Cassiopeia. Because if you can't, why not just play Brand, does hella damage as well, and if you have Rylais that's also a lot of slow ticks. You can't expect to live if you get initiated on, even if you do ult, you'll have to flash out to keep attacking because of how squishy you are. And if you say you can just keep attacking, then that's like saying AD carries shouldn't flash out when they start getting focused lol.
Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception.
You're not Ryze, you can't peel everyone attacking you with your W and spellvamp everything back
You're not Xerath, you can't kill people before they can even touch you
You're not Karthus, you need to live
You're not Brand, you can't do a combo that takes 1 second to fully cast and then run back and wait for another chance to do it
TL;DR
IF YOU BUILD FULL AP ON CASSIOPEIA YOU'RE AN AD CARRY WHO DOES AP DAMAGE
IF YOU BUILD TANKY ON CASSIOPEIA THEN YOU'RE A BRUISER WHO DOES AP DAMAGE
Either way, it's enough AP damage for your team, just keep in mind that her kit is amazing for initiation and chasing which is something that is amazing on bruisers, not so much AD carries. (You don't see Tristana jumping into a full item team, unless you're watching locodoco that is)
EDIT2: @Two_Down, it's not to ensure that you can sustain in a fight as much as it is to ensure that you can initiate a fight, focus 1 target with E regardless of their position, and have at least a small chance at living to tell the tale. A full AP cass although definitely capable of taking an entire team to half with ult + w + q, will never get into a situation where she can do so unless a team is facechecking a brush. Tanky Cass can flash in and do it easy peasy.
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On January 06 2012 15:16 dignity wrote:
If you are poking with Q/W as viktor you are doing something wrong. Why call a champion garbage if you are not even playing him properly.
Enlighten us, how is Viktor to be played that he doenst suck?
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On January 06 2012 16:43 ihasaKAROT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 15:16 dignity wrote:
If you are poking with Q/W as viktor you are doing something wrong. Why call a champion garbage if you are not even playing him properly. Enlighten us, how is Viktor to be played that he doenst suck?
you pick a team around him fully built to let his ult do 7 ticks.
Then you realize that Xerath can do the same amount of AP damage on lower CD and with longer range, and in a shorter amount of time, with his stupid siege Mpen as well.
=(
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Yeah I ended up with the same conclusion there. Viktor just counters 0 champions and is on par only with a few. Most counter him instead...
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On January 06 2012 16:38 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 16:00 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill. While there may be merit in tanky Cassiopeia, if you think Cassiopeia with Deathcap/standard AP build can "only burst one person down" you have no idea what Cassiopeia does. Her Q is on a 3 second without cdr. Her entire skillset with the exception of her ulti is extremely spammable and that's why she does hella sustained damage. Standard AP Cassiopeia is not powerful because she can burst down 1 or 2 people. It's powerful because she can burst down an entire team in quick succession. Yes, Cassio is really squishy if played standard AP, but her skillset also lets her kite extraordinarily well. The movement speed boost from her Q is amazing combined with her long cast ranges let her kite extremely easily, especially with Rylais. Also, if you're using your ulti and you only hit 1 person, you're using it wrong. Regardless of what elo you're at. Cassiopeia ulti is best used, imo, as counter-initiation. You shouldn't be played Cassiopeia the way you play Annie with flash-combo on their backline. You play Cassiopeia similar to how you play range AD. Hit what you can because anything you can touch will simply melt. EDIT: Something important I forgot to mention is that if you have sustained damage, then you want to sustain in a fight, which is why you build tanky, ie Ryze. It doesn't matter how much high sustained damage in a fight you have if you die quickly. Like I said earlier though, you're overestimating how much damage Deathcap gives you. Late game Cassiopeia is fully capable of bursting an entire team down only having 300 AP as well, the difference is that if a target pulls their escape in a teamfight, you can keep chasing them if you are decked out with HP mr and armor, but if you're not, even if you can do your damage faster, you won't kill them. Also, I'm going to argue that, you should Flash ult to initiate on Cassiopeia. Because if you can't, why not just play Brand, does hella damage as well, and if you have Rylais that's also a lot of slow ticks. You can't expect to live if you get initiated on, even if you do ult, you'll have to flash out to keep attacking because of how squishy you are. And if you say you can just keep attacking, then that's like saying AD carries shouldn't flash out when they start getting focused lol. Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception. You're not Ryze, you can't peel everyone attacking you with your W and spellvamp everything back You're not Xerath, you can't kill people before they can even touch you You're not Karthus, you need to live You're not Brand, you can't do a combo that takes 1 second to fully cast and then run back and wait for another chance to do it TL;DR IF YOU BUILD FULL AP ON CASSIOPEIA YOU'RE AN AD CARRY WHO DOES AP DAMAGE IF YOU BUILD TANKY ON CASSIOPEIA THEN YOU'RE A BRUISER WHO DOES AP DAMAGE Either way, it's enough AP damage for your team, just keep in mind that her kit is amazing for initiation and chasing which is something that is amazing on bruisers, not so much AD carries. (You don't see Tristana jumping into a full item team, unless you're watching locodoco that is) EDIT2: @Two_Down, it's not to ensure that you can sustain in a fight as much as it is to ensure that you can initiate a fight, focus 1 target with E regardless of their position, and have at least a small chance at living to tell the tale. A full AP cass although definitely capable of taking an entire team to half with ult + w + q, will never get into a situation where she can do so unless a team is facechecking a brush. Tanky Cass can flash in and do it easy peasy.
I've never tried or even seen tanky Cass until today with the SK v. TSM scrim. In that game, the build used by Ocelot was a perfect counter to TSM's composition and situation. I'm not saying tanky Cass doesn't work or it's inferior as I've never used it.
With Jiji's build of Wota rush, you have comparable spellvamp to Ryze, especially if your team is running double wota. Ofc, Ryze is still going to out-sustain Cassiopeia in fights due to his ulti, but to say Cassio has no sustain in fights is false.
Flash+ulting with Cassiopeia is not optimal and should only be done to catch someone out of position. The cast time on your ulti is pretty substantial and it's not hard to dodge. Not to mention flash+ulting is tricky since in the time it takes to cast if your targets turn around you just screwed yourself. It's a risky maneuver that can work out very well for you, but it's safer and more consistent to use her ulti as counter-initiation or in the middle of a fight where there is much less chance for someone to dodge it on purpose or by accident.
Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception.
I completely disagree with this part. Cassio has the highest sustained damage out of all of these champions by far. Those champions you named outclass Cassio in different aspects. Ryze is tanky and is impossible to kill a la bruiser style. Xerath is long range poker who outputs consistent damage with strong burst in his ultimate, but once his ulti is used his damage is pretty mediocre. Karthus can aoe an entire enemy team unhindered because of his passive. Brand is good not because his combo does a lot of damage with a full item build, it does, but he's strong because his laning and early-mid game is absurd. Brand most definitely falls off lategame in terms of damage. Cassiopeia has a 0.9 AP ratio on her Q with 3 second base cd and a 0.55 AP ratio on her E which has basically no cooldown. Her raw sustained damage scaling is completely unmatched by any champion in the game. If you use your ulti for counter-initiation + rylais you can most definitely peel people off of you.
You said it exactly right in your tldr. If you go full AP, you must play as an AD carry, but you output far far more sustained damage than if you go tanky. Positioning and a good teamcomp is extremely key to being successful with full AP Cassiopeia, but I can guarantee you with good positioning and a good teamcomp you'll be much stronger going full AP. I can turn your argument and ask why don't you just build AD carries tanky? Same reasoning behind tanky Cassio; you still do damage and you can worry less about being blown up.
However, I will add that, in the double AP meta or even just the whole glass cannon trend with Pantheon and Tryndamere becoming more popular, with a considerably weaker frontline than the "traditional" atmogs-on-half-your-team compositions, it's probably more useful to build Cassiopeia somewhat tanky as there's a weaker frontline keeping shit off of you so you will need to be able to take more punishment. As the meta changes, builds and playstyles have to change, and perhaps tanky Cassiopeia is a necessary one.
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ok, i didnt play for some time and found 7k IP an my account, which champion should i buy: Fizz, Voli, Ahri, Dragon lady....
last champ i was active was grave i think.
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On January 06 2012 17:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 16:38 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 16:00 Ryuu314 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:39 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 15:32 Perplex wrote:On January 06 2012 14:58 tobi9999 wrote:On January 06 2012 14:51 BlackMagister wrote:
Is tank cassiopia really viable? The TSM scrim vs SK had a Cass building durability to good effect vs Regi leblanc and now Regi is going Wota Warmog Cass and was able to survive a team fight pretty well. Just tuned in and it seemed like he lost the lane to Loci so Regi wasn't fed. that's how Regi/TSM thinks how Cass should be built The least tanky build they do is triple doran rings into Rylais. The Rain Man basically spammed Cassiopeia games to get rank 1 at the start of Season 2, then he told Regi to build triple doran into Banshee or Rylais. And Regi, who previously thought Cassiopeia was terrible because he went Deathcap first, suddenly was like, holy shit this champion is OP. that's the story behind it though, Ocelote just had that build to counter Kennen + LB Anyways, that's pretty much how you're supposed to build her unless you're just trolling for fun. Is it really viable? It just doens't make sense to me. How do you damage without 2 or 3 dorans into dcap? it isn't only viable, but it's the only/best way to play. You're overestimating how valuable deathcap is. With Deathcap at most what you'll do is just burst one person down, and be able to land q/w on one target, then kill them with e in 2 hits with massive dmgz. However, if you're 2.5k hp+ you can easily go for high priority targets IE 2 people clumped, which essentially DOUBLES your Q damage. Basically, it's a non suicide Karthus mentality of build to tank and hit more people, do more damage. Not more AP, more damage. EDIT: Also, in high ELO, there's no way in hell you're going to land a Cassiopeia ult on more than 1 person if you don't build tanky or your team isn't fed. You'll just get focused. And people don't clump randomly for no reason just for you to AoE as well. You can do things of your own merit, rather than the enemies lack of skill. While there may be merit in tanky Cassiopeia, if you think Cassiopeia with Deathcap/standard AP build can "only burst one person down" you have no idea what Cassiopeia does. Her Q is on a 3 second without cdr. Her entire skillset with the exception of her ulti is extremely spammable and that's why she does hella sustained damage. Standard AP Cassiopeia is not powerful because she can burst down 1 or 2 people. It's powerful because she can burst down an entire team in quick succession. Yes, Cassio is really squishy if played standard AP, but her skillset also lets her kite extraordinarily well. The movement speed boost from her Q is amazing combined with her long cast ranges let her kite extremely easily, especially with Rylais. Also, if you're using your ulti and you only hit 1 person, you're using it wrong. Regardless of what elo you're at. Cassiopeia ulti is best used, imo, as counter-initiation. You shouldn't be played Cassiopeia the way you play Annie with flash-combo on their backline. You play Cassiopeia similar to how you play range AD. Hit what you can because anything you can touch will simply melt. EDIT: Something important I forgot to mention is that if you have sustained damage, then you want to sustain in a fight, which is why you build tanky, ie Ryze. It doesn't matter how much high sustained damage in a fight you have if you die quickly. Like I said earlier though, you're overestimating how much damage Deathcap gives you. Late game Cassiopeia is fully capable of bursting an entire team down only having 300 AP as well, the difference is that if a target pulls their escape in a teamfight, you can keep chasing them if you are decked out with HP mr and armor, but if you're not, even if you can do your damage faster, you won't kill them. Also, I'm going to argue that, you should Flash ult to initiate on Cassiopeia. Because if you can't, why not just play Brand, does hella damage as well, and if you have Rylais that's also a lot of slow ticks. You can't expect to live if you get initiated on, even if you do ult, you'll have to flash out to keep attacking because of how squishy you are. And if you say you can just keep attacking, then that's like saying AD carries shouldn't flash out when they start getting focused lol. Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception. You're not Ryze, you can't peel everyone attacking you with your W and spellvamp everything back You're not Xerath, you can't kill people before they can even touch you You're not Karthus, you need to live You're not Brand, you can't do a combo that takes 1 second to fully cast and then run back and wait for another chance to do it TL;DR IF YOU BUILD FULL AP ON CASSIOPEIA YOU'RE AN AD CARRY WHO DOES AP DAMAGE IF YOU BUILD TANKY ON CASSIOPEIA THEN YOU'RE A BRUISER WHO DOES AP DAMAGE Either way, it's enough AP damage for your team, just keep in mind that her kit is amazing for initiation and chasing which is something that is amazing on bruisers, not so much AD carries. (You don't see Tristana jumping into a full item team, unless you're watching locodoco that is) EDIT2: @Two_Down, it's not to ensure that you can sustain in a fight as much as it is to ensure that you can initiate a fight, focus 1 target with E regardless of their position, and have at least a small chance at living to tell the tale. A full AP cass although definitely capable of taking an entire team to half with ult + w + q, will never get into a situation where she can do so unless a team is facechecking a brush. Tanky Cass can flash in and do it easy peasy. I've never tried or even seen tanky Cass until today with the SK v. TSM scrim. In that game, the build used by Ocelot was a perfect counter to TSM's composition and situation. I'm not saying tanky Cass doesn't work or it's inferior as I've never used it. With Jiji's build of Wota rush, you have comparable spellvamp to Ryze, especially if your team is running double wota. Ofc, Ryze is still going to out-sustain Cassiopeia in fights due to his ulti, but to say Cassio has no sustain in fights is false. Flash+ulting with Cassiopeia is not optimal and should only be done to catch someone out of position. The cast time on your ulti is pretty substantial and it's not hard to dodge. Not to mention flash+ulting is tricky since in the time it takes to cast if your targets turn around you just screwed yourself. It's a risky maneuver that can work out very well for you, but it's safer and more consistent to use her ulti as counter-initiation or in the middle of a fight where there is much less chance for someone to dodge it on purpose or by accident. Show nested quote +Another thing is, Cassiopeia is one of my most played champions, and from my experiences I can tell you that if you want to play with a Deathcap build, Brand, Xerath, Ryze, and Karthus just outclass you without exception. I completely disagree with this part. Cassio has the highest sustained damage out of all of these champions by far. Those champions you named outclass Cassio in different aspects. Ryze is tanky and is impossible to kill a la bruiser style. Xerath is long range poker who outputs consistent damage with strong burst in his ultimate, but once his ulti is used his damage is pretty mediocre. Karthus can aoe an entire enemy team unhindered because of his passive. Brand is good not because his combo does a lot of damage with a full item build, it does, but he's strong because his laning and early-mid game is absurd. Brand most definitely falls off lategame in terms of damage. Cassiopeia has a 0.9 AP ratio on her Q with 3 second base cd and a 0.55 AP ratio on her E which has basically no cooldown. Her raw sustained damage scaling is completely unmatched by any champion in the game. If you use your ulti for counter-initiation + rylais you can most definitely peel people off of you. You said it exactly right in your tldr. If you go full AP, you must play as an AD carry, but you output far far more sustained damage than if you go tanky. Positioning and a good teamcomp is extremely key to being successful with full AP Cassiopeia, but I can guarantee you with good positioning and a good teamcomp you'll be much stronger going full AP. I can turn your argument and ask why don't you just build AD carries tanky? Same reasoning behind tanky Cassio; you still do damage and you can worry less about being blown up. I will add that, in the double AP meta or even just the whole glass cannon trend with Pantheon and Tryndamere becoming more popular, with a considerably weaker frontline than the "traditional" atmogs-on-half-your-team compositions, it's probably more useful to build Cassiopeia somewhat tanky as there's a weaker frontline keeping shit off of you so you will need to be able to take more punishment. As the meta changes, builds and playstyles have to change, and perhaps tanky Cassiopeia is a necessary one.
you don't build AD carries tanky because if you do then they do way less damage. Since AD/AS/Crit all stack off of each other...
AP is linear, you're missing only 300AP~ worth of damage at a full build which is like less than 200~ damage on Q once you factor in resists. Whilst you will be easily 4xing your survivability.
If you built tank on Vayne, you're missing out on almost 2k damage a second on average.
Like you've said so many times, Cassiopeia is sustained damage implying that the longer the fight goes on, the better she does.
Well building tanky drags the fight out.
I'm not saying that AP Cass doesn't do a shit ton of damage, and is amazing with good positioning. I'm saying that Tank cass does almost as much, and is able to initiate fights and overextend for high priority targets.
Just test it, Tank Cass out damages so so many AP champions without building AP. It's completely retarded, and after watching Reginald dominate several games with <100 AP cass going like 20-3, I might try that from now on. :/
EDIT: You know what, actually I'm thinking Merc Treads + Warmogs + Mallet + Atmas + FoN +PD with 40% attack speed rune page would be yummy. LOL Although, you'd get destroyed in lane while trying to build a warmogs =(
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cruzerthebruzer is the real deal when you want a god tier lee sin.
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On January 06 2012 17:25 tobi9999 wrote:
Well building tanky drags the fight out.
Correction: Building tanky COULD drag the fight out. If they nuke down your 4 teammates and you cant burst down the enemys just because ur too tanky , it still doenst help. Cassio is sustained damage, but her burst is no joke.
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EPT
