EPT[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 175
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Craton
United States17305 Posts
It's incredibly stupid to get tankiness by building offensively. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:10 TheYango wrote: Riot hates "free gold" passives, because apparently having some champions that have better item scaling than others is bad for the game. But plenty of champions have free gold passives. Its not like jax's passive was particularly OP, it was just good. We don't see jax raping face in every high level game do we? It just gave him flexibility in items builds which is a good thing. Right now, there are like a dozen champions on whom you would build the exact same shit regardless of their kits. There doesn't seem to be any variety in item builds. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:14 Craton wrote: No, the issue is double dipping, exactly like with Vlad. It's incredibly stupid to get tankiness by building offensively. I was referring more to the "pick bruiser, build atmogs" problem. Like Riot just doesnt realize that the reason you have to run atmogs is because there arent any other good options. And instead of nerfing warmogs, they should be looking at how other health items could be made to be more attractive. Like remember when sunfire capes were good? Why cant frozen mallet cost be changed from a giants belt to a ruby crystal and have a massive price drop? | ||
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Craton
United States17305 Posts
Mallet's issue isn't that it uses Belt instead of Crystal (since it DOES use Crystal), it's that the final combine is a lot of money for relatively little value. A cost drop would mean a drop in its stats, which is exactly what the item doesn't need. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:16 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: But plenty of champions have free gold passives. Its not like jax's passive was particularly OP, it was just good. We don't see jax raping face in every high level game do we? It just gave him flexibility in items builds which is a good thing. Right now, there are like a dozen champions on whom you would build the exact same shit regardless of their kits. There doesn't seem to be any variety in item builds. Riot got rid of Kayle passive and gutted Vlad's passive. They don't like passives that give you gold value based on spending gold for itemization. On January 12 2012 13:14 Craton wrote: No, the issue is double dipping offensive stats for defense. Riot hating "free gold" passives is just a nonsense argument, as every passive is essentially free gold value. You're arguing semantics. You know very well by "free gold value" I mean passives that give increasing gold value's worth of benefit the more gold you spend in itemization on those characters. Defense from offense is not the problem, else they wouldn't have gutted Kayle passive. They HATE passives that have scaling gold value based on your gold input. On January 12 2012 13:14 Craton wrote: It's incredibly stupid to get tankiness by building offensively. Why? It's all gold value. Double-dip passive that gives you 3 HP per AD just means you get 1 gold free for every 13 you spend on AD. Again, I don't see why it's a problem that a character gets 7% more bang for his buck on the gold he spends specifically on AD. How is homogenizing power curves better for this game? Especially since there by nature will always be characters that get more bang for their buck from gold ANYWAY? | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + His stats and abilities are not unchanged. While the functionality of Q and W are identical, their numbers are different. For example, his HP per level is going up to compensate for the loss of the old free health passive. As someone who's been playing a ton of Jax internally to make sure he's balanced: 1a. Do not, do not, do not underestimate the power of a jungler with a 700 range leap strike + stun. Pantheon wishes he could jungle gank like Jax. "Do not underestimate the power of 35% crit at full health" proved to be a correct statement. Trust me on this one 1b. His jungle clear speed is really, really fast. Getting that free attack speed from level 1 is a big deal. 2. His damage, cooldown, and scaling values are different such that you get a lot of new gameplay: 2a. For example, if you build pure glass cannon, you're doing to be squishier than before, but have more damage than before. This feeds in from his ultimate giving even more AD/AP, and it comes in from tweaked cooldowns and ratios. 2b. Your sustained itemless DPS is a bit higher, so zero-gold Jax (or pure tank Jax) is stronger than before, both from base ability damage and from base stat increases. 2c. Building some mix of both damage and durability, which is the build I think is most likely (See: Lee Sin, Nocturne, Gangplank) will put you almost exactly where you were before in both damage and durability. 3. A reliable on-demand stun is a big deal. Honestly, Jax is not nerfed. He has more viable build options, the ability to jungle, and just the right amount of power, IMO. If do miss the mark on his power, then we can just buff him. We removed the toxic mechanics so that we can safely buff/nerf him without creating a snowballing nightmare. If he comes out weak, we buff. If he comes out too strong, we nerf. He gives me a bit of confidence that the numbers aren't completely borked but in the end I'm still pretty leery that jax will basically lose his flavor kayle-style even if the numbers turn out ok. | ||
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Craton
United States17305 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:19 TheYango wrote: How is homogenizing power curves better for this game? I don't believe for one second that this is the result that will occur. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:18 Craton wrote: Sunfire is resurging on top laners as the HP counterpart to Atma's. I thought someone did the mathcraft on it and its horribly inefficient gold wise. But like there are a bunch of different ways Riot could diversify build paths for bruisers. Physical casters? Why not make an ad version of rylais? Slow on abilities, perfect for lee sin or renekton. Already mentioned, but why not make an ad spell vamp item? On hitters? Make the giants belt a ruby crystal in giants belt and reduce the shit out of the cost. Why not make a moonfire cape? Why not make a wits beginning with cloth armor? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:23 Craton wrote: Because you should have to make a conscious choice of getting more damage or more survivability. Except it always still WAS a choice on Jax. It just skews your survivability choices toward resist items in the same way it does for someone like Udyr or Warwick. Or are you saying stacking Gunblades without ever thinking about survivability was reasonable and that Jax players are idiots for ever considering QSS, Atmas, or GA? On January 12 2012 13:23 Craton wrote: Getting survivability solely because you built for more damage causes huge issues with balancing and generally leads to hyperscaling champions. The only alternative is having the passive add so little in stats that you should just have a different passive. We already have hyperscaling champions, scaling gold passives or not, and I don't think they're a problem for the game. Unless you think Kog-maw, Tristana, Riven, Vayne, and Tryndamere all deserve to be gutted and reworked. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On January 12 2012 12:26 BluzMan wrote: Things learned from the spotlight: 1) They removed his passive totally. New passive just gives him half of his ult at level 1, the other half he gets at level 6. 2) The CD on E is 10+ seconds which, unless the damage on it is totally nuts, means it's worse than it have been. 3) His Q and W cannot do more damage than they already did (otherwise it would reverse a recent nerf). Unless they added better ratios for his skills I cannot see how the new Jax is better than the old Jax but we'll see. EDIT: Oh, actually his ult adds bonus AD and AP. But the CD on his E at least at skill level 1 is something like 18 seconds. Great, they've made another volibear you can kite all day long since his only CC looks like a 1 second stun on a 18 sec CD. some other stuff I saw: leap strike cd looks like ~7-8 seconds at all ranks empower cd rank 5: 3 seconds rank 3 ultimate active is 70 AP/AD for ~6 seconds (~75 second cd) rank 2 is around 45 AP/AD Since every ability is being changed in some form his ratios/base numbers might be as well. It looks like he'll be a lot squishier in lane/teamfights without the passive HP+dodge+MR active. I also dislike the longer CD's, Jax has never had an offensive move with a CD longer than 5 seconds at max rank. edit: Laning looks like it'll be even more reliant on trading effectively (since Jax has no sustain). In higher level games Dyrus's 29 defense + flash/tp will probably be the way to go. On the other hand full offense Jax will be even more of a pubstomper at low levels. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
Also I'd rather just spend a bit more gold and get a randuin's then the cost-inefficient sunfire. Sunfire I just so weak compared to randuin's. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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Craton
United States17305 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:23 Two_DoWn wrote: I thought someone did the mathcraft on it and its horribly inefficient gold wise. But like there are a bunch of different ways Riot could diversify build paths for bruisers. Physical casters? Why not make an ad version of rylais? Slow on abilities, perfect for lee sin or renekton. Already mentioned, but why not make an ad spell vamp item? On hitters? Make the giants belt a ruby crystal in giants belt and reduce the shit out of the cost. Why not make a moonfire cape? Why not make a wits beginning with cloth armor? I already dislike Rylai's in many cases because of the ability for you to be permaslowed with little to no available counterplay. I don't really want to see that proliferated, especially when you consider how easily the champs who would use the physical variant can already stick to their target. I think the idea of an AD spell vamp item is overrated and probably wouldn't be a useful addition, especially in light of the balance time that would be needed for the maybe 1% of champs that might consider it. Armor is the most easily itemized thing in the game and Wit's is already one of the most efficient items in the game. I don't agree that Giant's belt needs to have its cost nerfed. You get a LOT out of the HP it gives already and nerfing its cost means you need to nerf its value to compensate, else you'll see a huge rise in the relative power level of bruisers. Giant's belt is a great item. Warmogs is a great item for tankiness, but makes up for the large amount of EHP in that it gives nothing offensive. Sunfire gives a bit of both, but is something that's kind of hard to quantify effectively. Frozen Mallet is kind of wishy-washy because it can be incredibly stifling on some champs (e.g. Trundle), but kind of lackluster on others. A lot of its cost goes into that proc but the strength of that proc is really variable depending on the champ. It's hard to buff an item that can be OP in some cases, but weak in others. You'd have to look at normalizing the proc, which would probably come in the form of preventing reapplication outside of X seconds. Even then its wishy-washy. I think people are overly obsessed with Atma's, but primarily so because it's a relatively cheap item that gives an okayish amount of damage and armor. I'm pretty sure Triforce + HP item is better, but at about 2x the cost of Atma's. Atma's also continues to scale as you level up and further your build. The problem is that if you make a "triforce-lite" (or any cheaper alternative) is that you end up stuck with these cheap "midgame" items like Wits, Hexdrinker, etc. If you get too many your lategame build just feels really weak as everyone is getting fully built. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:36 Craton wrote: I already dislike Rylai's in many cases because of the ability for you to be permaslowed with little to no available counterplay. I don't really want to see that proliferated, especially when you consider how easily the champs who can use it can already stick to their target. What situations are those? The last time someone made that complaint to me, their situation essentially amounted to "OMG QQ I tried to 1v1 Vlad and was losing/someone else from their team came, so I tried to run and couldn't get away!". That's not a situation that needs counterplay--you made a bad choice to engage and got punished for it. Most situations I can think of where Rylai's permaslow is practically similar (e.g. a situation where there are no CCs to interrupt the chain-casting of a spammable nuke) are like that one. EDIT: Also as far as item design goes. I maintain that Riot hasn't done enough in exploring the possibilities for more item actives. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On January 12 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote: What situations are those? The last time someone made that complaint to me, their situation essentially amounted to "OMG QQ I tried to 1v1 Vlad and was losing/someone else from their team came, so I tried to run and couldn't get away!". That's not a situation that needs counterplay--you made a bad choice to engage and got punished for it. Most situations I can think of where Rylai's permaslow is practically similar (e.g. a situation where there are no CCs to interrupt the chain-casting of a spammable nuke) are like that one. EDIT: Also as far as item design goes. I maintain that Riot hasn't done enough in exploring the possibilities for more item actives. necroboooookkkkk | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Aghanim? | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
I've started really preferring it on Malphite (over Warmog's), you get enough health from other sources that you're still tanky enough with the lower health amount. It synergizes very well with Abyssal Scepter to make a very nice two item combo that provides a lot of defence and a lot of damage. The only significant bonus you get from the recipe upgrade is the passive itself, so it's 800g for 35 magic damage per second in an AoE. It sounds like a small amount but it's actually pretty good, especially on someone like Malphite where you're going to be standing right in the middle of the enemy team. In a teamfight you could easily do 600+ magic damage across the board. It gives you a similar amount of damage to Atma's (hard to compare of course), but you don't have to sink 800g on crit chance, so for a character where crit is no good, I think Sunfire is better. | ||
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