If your [Stream] thread was moved to the general TL Stream subforum (aka SC stream land), find your thread and PM it to me and I'll move it back to LoL territory. I can argue with staff that moving a non-SC thread into a SC subforum is just asking for that thread to get buried.
- Neo, Dec. 15 2011, 6:33 KST
I have admin approval. I'll be moving LoL streams back to the subforum. Stream name will be based on Summoner name.
On December 19 2011 14:54 UniversalSnip wrote: Why are you guys being so uncivil? I feel as if this thread is real unfriendly lately. Do you really think it makes your argument more credible to call the other guy stupid? Do you think it's convincing them? seriously...
At some point personal attacks and trolling became the MO of the forum.
Saying someones judgement is stupid is different from saying someone is stupid.
If "shut them down in lane" is a viable strategy, why does riot ever need to nerf champions. Orianna just spamming teams down? Shut her down in lane. Super carries destroying team fights? Destroy them in lane. The new double WotA ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! Poke comp ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! I can't imagine why every pro team hasn't thought of this before.
Okay, more like, "Shut them down in lane and END THE GAME before they recover."
If "shut them down in lane" wasn't a viable strategy, you'd never see someone like pantheon or garen played ever who drop off pretty hard lategame. Because guess what, not all champions have the same power curves. Every champion has some type of way to help counter them.
In order for one person to shut down someone else in a lane, it requires that players team to completely ignore the lane that's getting shit on. If someone is losing hard, should you ignore that lane completely? It's not like counters aren't known, it takes a conscience effort to then let that person lose their lane from the rest of your team. And there are other viable things that pro teams do to counter this, like the game I believe it was tsm vs clg, where tsm went taric garen lane to counter ashe sona, and clg just lane swapped them to mid instead of letting them get shit on. The amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd. It's as simple as listening to what artosis says about playing, you should rely on yourself being good, not your opponent being bad. I'm going to rely on the Artosis knowledge that it isn't a viable strategy for winning games because of it.
edit: so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins.
shut them down in lane =/= get team to devote resources to win a single lane, which is what it sounds like you're trying to say. all shutting down someone in lane means that you need to counterpick and win that lane with or without your team's help. when did anyone say that shutting down someone in lane means you have to have your team ignore everything but the lane you're trying to shut down?
"the amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd." this is also false. people lose lanes all the time in pro games. sure you can lane swap and do other stuff to help prevent that, but it's not always feasible to do that. getting pwnt in lane isn't necessarily cause you're bad. some champs have bad matchups and lane swapping/jungle support isn't always going to save your ass.
"shutting down someone in lane" is a viable strat against many champs, most notably hyper carries with weak early games or bad matchups. one good example is nasus. you beat nasus by shutting him down. similarly, you beat vayne by shutting her down. that being said, I don't agree with vayne having a weak early game. with the right support/matchup it's easy for vayne to win lane np. Corki wasn't a good pick against vayne imo. should've gone with graves or smth since cait was banned.
"so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins." To answer your question it basically just comes down to which team/player played better. In this case, doublelift/clg played better.
The really stupid thing about this whole argument is that it started with people complimenting Doublelift for his nice micro and good play/crs derping. Then you come in and go "nonono doublelift win cuz vayne OP" while simultaneously calling everyone an idiot/stupid. cmon man.
On December 19 2011 14:54 UniversalSnip wrote: Why are you guys being so uncivil? I feel as if this thread is real unfriendly lately. Do you really think it makes your argument more credible to call the other guy stupid? Do you think it's convincing them? seriously...
At some point personal attacks and trolling became the MO of the forum.
Saying someones judgement is stupid is different from saying someone is stupid.
If "shut them down in lane" is a viable strategy, why does riot ever need to nerf champions. Orianna just spamming teams down? Shut her down in lane. Super carries destroying team fights? Destroy them in lane. The new double WotA ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! Poke comp ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! I can't imagine why every pro team hasn't thought of this before.
Okay, more like, "Shut them down in lane and END THE GAME before they recover."
If "shut them down in lane" wasn't a viable strategy, you'd never see someone like pantheon or garen played ever who drop off pretty hard lategame. Because guess what, not all champions have the same power curves. Every champion has some type of way to help counter them.
In order for one person to shut down someone else in a lane, it requires that players team to completely ignore the lane that's getting shit on. If someone is losing hard, should you ignore that lane completely? It's not like counters aren't known, it takes a conscience effort to then let that person lose their lane from the rest of your team. And there are other viable things that pro teams do to counter this, like the game I believe it was tsm vs clg, where tsm went taric garen lane to counter ashe sona, and clg just lane swapped them to mid instead of letting them get shit on. The amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd. It's as simple as listening to what artosis says about playing, you should rely on yourself being good, not your opponent being bad. I'm going to rely on the Artosis knowledge that it isn't a viable strategy for winning games because of it.
edit: so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins.
Vayne is easily countered, shes very weak in the lane unless paired with an aggressive CC support (Alistar, Taric) that can set up positions for her to stun. It takes three shots for the true damage to go off, and that's at a very vulnerable 550 range. Cait in particular can easily punish Vayne, Ashe can do it decently with Volley. Keep her off the minions, constantly harass her and if she makes stupid mistakes (easily forced when one isn't getting CS) capitalize on it and net some kills. Jungles are scary but if your team has wards (in the right places) they are avoidable. The only thing that should be of any real worry is Mid coming to gank, but if that happens your mid needs to come help or capitalize and take the tower.
After all that, you have to make sure you end it before she can bounce back. Vayne can easily change the game, even if she isn't farmed, she still does retarded damage.
At one point it becomes retarded to keep switching lanes. Teams will counter a lane swap by swapping back, and then it'll happen so much where, they just stop swapping. When you have one lane constantly being screwed and you keep leaving your lane to help them, you give the person you're laning against free farm and potentially free tower(s).
Vayne is the opposite of the Anti-Mage meta in DOTA. They use him because he does the most amount of damage early-mid game (even forgoing damage items to build defensively [Vanguard]), where most teams try to end with Chen-push strats. Vayne is used more for her late-game. If you don't ban Vayne and the other team picks her, you might as well make an attempt to push and win during mid-game.
edit: I don't actually know the current dota meta game though, I knew anti-mage and chen-pushes were the current a while ago.
I am actually joining Dignitas as their jungler because Jatt can't do it anymore. That's why he wasn't there today and they had that sub. I already told Curse I would play with them for this tournament though so I was committed as I am a man of my word. I won't be moving into the TSM house or replacing The Rain Man afterall.. (:3)
Is this true? Scumbag Jatt replaced by Scumbag Elementz?!
Hotshot was in on it, I think. I stopped watching jiji's stream while they were in the middle of talking about it on vent but Hotshot was telling saint about it and saying stuff like, "Yeah, I mean, jungling is the easiest role in the game so Elementz can probably pick it up pretty quick."
I am actually joining Dignitas as their jungler because Jatt can't do it anymore. That's why he wasn't there today and they had that sub. I already told Curse I would play with them for this tournament though so I was committed as I am a man of my word. I won't be moving into the TSM house or replacing The Rain Man afterall.. (:3)
Is this true? Scumbag Jatt replaced by Scumbag Elementz?!
Hotshot was in on it, I think. I stopped watching jiji's stream while they were in the middle of talking about it on vent but Hotshot was telling saint about it and saying stuff like, "Yeah, I mean, jungling is the easiest role in the game so Elementz can probably pick it up pretty quick."
meh. i wouldn't put it past hotshot to try to piss saint off
On December 19 2011 14:54 UniversalSnip wrote: Why are you guys being so uncivil? I feel as if this thread is real unfriendly lately. Do you really think it makes your argument more credible to call the other guy stupid? Do you think it's convincing them? seriously...
At some point personal attacks and trolling became the MO of the forum.
Saying someones judgement is stupid is different from saying someone is stupid.
If "shut them down in lane" is a viable strategy, why does riot ever need to nerf champions. Orianna just spamming teams down? Shut her down in lane. Super carries destroying team fights? Destroy them in lane. The new double WotA ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! Poke comp ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! I can't imagine why every pro team hasn't thought of this before.
Okay, more like, "Shut them down in lane and END THE GAME before they recover."
If "shut them down in lane" wasn't a viable strategy, you'd never see someone like pantheon or garen played ever who drop off pretty hard lategame. Because guess what, not all champions have the same power curves. Every champion has some type of way to help counter them.
In order for one person to shut down someone else in a lane, it requires that players team to completely ignore the lane that's getting shit on. If someone is losing hard, should you ignore that lane completely? It's not like counters aren't known, it takes a conscience effort to then let that person lose their lane from the rest of your team. And there are other viable things that pro teams do to counter this, like the game I believe it was tsm vs clg, where tsm went taric garen lane to counter ashe sona, and clg just lane swapped them to mid instead of letting them get shit on. The amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd. It's as simple as listening to what artosis says about playing, you should rely on yourself being good, not your opponent being bad. I'm going to rely on the Artosis knowledge that it isn't a viable strategy for winning games because of it.
edit: so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins.
shut them down in lane =/= get team to devote resources to win a single lane, which is what it sounds like you're trying to say. all shutting down someone in lane means that you need to counterpick and win that lane with or without your team's help. when did anyone say that shutting down someone in lane means you have to have your team ignore everything but the lane you're trying to shut down?
"the amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd." this is also false. people lose lanes all the time in pro games. sure you can lane swap and do other stuff to help prevent that, but it's not always feasible to do that. getting pwnt in lane isn't necessarily cause you're bad. some champs have bad matchups and lane swapping/jungle support isn't always going to save your ass.
"shutting down someone in lane" is a viable strat against many champs, most notably hyper carries with weak early games or bad matchups. one good example is nasus. you beat nasus by shutting him down. similarly, you beat vayne by shutting her down. that being said, I don't agree with vayne having a weak early game. with the right support/matchup it's easy for vayne to win lane np. Corki wasn't a good pick against vayne imo. should've gone with graves or smth since cait was banned.
"so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins." To answer your question it basically just comes down to which team/player played better. In this case, doublelift/clg played better.
The really stupid thing about this whole argument is that it started with people complimenting Doublelift for his nice micro and good play/crs derping. Then you come in and go "nonono doublelift win cuz vayne OP" while simultaneously calling everyone an idiot/stupid. cmon man.
Everyone also complimented jiji's play with orianna when she was over powered (before her range nerfs), describing orianna as a "high skill cap champion" instead of a retarded spam champion. Also note how jiji's TF was considered to be amazing (atleast until they nerfed his ult range) and now he doesn't play him. People say jiji is slumping because he isn't getting doubles and triples like they're air, but ignoring the nerfs that have come to almost all the ap's he was legendary with.
Doublelift says vayne is a hyper carry, he then proceeds to rape face with vayne, and you attribute that to doublelift's skill? It's the same as my first example, jiji was owning face with orianna not because he was good with her, but because she was faceroll.
I'm not saying doublelift isn't skilled, I think he's one of the most skilled ad's right now (somewhere in a mix with chaox and aphromoo), but when doublelift says that vayne is a hyper carry, I can't attribute any amazing plays he does with her to skill he has.
On December 19 2011 16:27 sylverfyre wrote: I'm starting to wish that posts that only bitch about "XX is OP" would be treated the classic TL way - with a trip to Disneyland.
I never complained about vayne being OP. I said the reason why doublelift was doing such amazing things was because of vaynes OPness as opposed to doublelifts skill. The gulf between "OMG SO OP" and "He's only doing that because of how OP she is" is huge. It's like saying the reason why 7/8 of the GSL 1 were terran was because terran was way more powerful than zerg or protoss. It's a huge difference from "OP nerf terran, GSL too boring."
On December 19 2011 16:27 sylverfyre wrote: I'm starting to wish that posts that only bitch about "XX is OP" would be treated the classic TL way - with a trip to Disneyland.
Agreed. Report and I'll take a look at how retarded the whine is.
On December 19 2011 14:54 UniversalSnip wrote: Why are you guys being so uncivil? I feel as if this thread is real unfriendly lately. Do you really think it makes your argument more credible to call the other guy stupid? Do you think it's convincing them? seriously...
At some point personal attacks and trolling became the MO of the forum.
Saying someones judgement is stupid is different from saying someone is stupid.
If "shut them down in lane" is a viable strategy, why does riot ever need to nerf champions. Orianna just spamming teams down? Shut her down in lane. Super carries destroying team fights? Destroy them in lane. The new double WotA ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! Poke comp ruining your day? Shut them down in lane! I can't imagine why every pro team hasn't thought of this before.
Okay, more like, "Shut them down in lane and END THE GAME before they recover."
If "shut them down in lane" wasn't a viable strategy, you'd never see someone like pantheon or garen played ever who drop off pretty hard lategame. Because guess what, not all champions have the same power curves. Every champion has some type of way to help counter them.
In order for one person to shut down someone else in a lane, it requires that players team to completely ignore the lane that's getting shit on. If someone is losing hard, should you ignore that lane completely? It's not like counters aren't known, it takes a conscience effort to then let that person lose their lane from the rest of your team. And there are other viable things that pro teams do to counter this, like the game I believe it was tsm vs clg, where tsm went taric garen lane to counter ashe sona, and clg just lane swapped them to mid instead of letting them get shit on. The amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd. It's as simple as listening to what artosis says about playing, you should rely on yourself being good, not your opponent being bad. I'm going to rely on the Artosis knowledge that it isn't a viable strategy for winning games because of it.
edit: so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins.
shut them down in lane =/= get team to devote resources to win a single lane, which is what it sounds like you're trying to say. all shutting down someone in lane means that you need to counterpick and win that lane with or without your team's help. when did anyone say that shutting down someone in lane means you have to have your team ignore everything but the lane you're trying to shut down?
"the amount of bad your entire team has to be in order to get shut down in lane is absurd." this is also false. people lose lanes all the time in pro games. sure you can lane swap and do other stuff to help prevent that, but it's not always feasible to do that. getting pwnt in lane isn't necessarily cause you're bad. some champs have bad matchups and lane swapping/jungle support isn't always going to save your ass.
"shutting down someone in lane" is a viable strat against many champs, most notably hyper carries with weak early games or bad matchups. one good example is nasus. you beat nasus by shutting him down. similarly, you beat vayne by shutting her down. that being said, I don't agree with vayne having a weak early game. with the right support/matchup it's easy for vayne to win lane np. Corki wasn't a good pick against vayne imo. should've gone with graves or smth since cait was banned.
"so here's a question, at what point does "don't let a lane get shit on" counter "shut them down in lane"? How do you balance the two, and which one wins." To answer your question it basically just comes down to which team/player played better. In this case, doublelift/clg played better.
The really stupid thing about this whole argument is that it started with people complimenting Doublelift for his nice micro and good play/crs derping. Then you come in and go "nonono doublelift win cuz vayne OP" while simultaneously calling everyone an idiot/stupid. cmon man.
Everyone also complimented jiji's play with orianna when she was over powered (before her range nerfs), describing orianna as a "high skill cap champion" instead of a retarded spam champion. Also note how jiji's TF was considered to be amazing (atleast until they nerfed his ult range) and now he doesn't play him. People say jiji is slumping because he isn't getting doubles and triples like they're air, but ignoring the nerfs that have come to almost all the ap's he was legendary with.
Just two things. First, why weren't other players as dominant as jiji on Ori and TF? Orianna at release was definitely broken but I think they probably had her pretty balanced after the first three or four nerfs. They nerfed her like every patch for awhile and she kept getting perm banned so they kept nerfing her. And now no one plays her (even though she's admittedly not that terrible she just has lots of bad lanes now). Sure, Regi was comparable to jiji TF (but imo not as strong) and Salce had a comparable Ori (but again, imo not as strong). Jiji was the best AP carry at both of those champs while they were the strongest APs.
Second, jiji is the only NA pro that I know of that still runs AP TF in lane in both solo queue and at tournies (he ran TF at WCG for example). So the idea that he doesn't play TF anymore is pretty wrong. He has played TF post-nerf just not as often as he did.
I like Doublelift a lot but I didn't watch tonight's games so I can't comment on his play.
Here's the 1v2 double kill by doublelift for those who didn't see it. Also, really wish the commentators actually got excited about things. "wow that was amazing I'm in shock" in complete monotone. wtf.
On December 19 2011 17:12 koreasilver wrote: Jiji has played TF on stream like all the time for as long as I can remember, even recently. I dunno what you're on about man.
He also just hit solo queue rank 1 again. Which is impressive considering several pros were striving to do the same thing at the same time as him. Dunno if he's coming out of his slump but slump jiji is still really fuckin' good.
edit: I will commentate and get giddy as a school girl about everything. True facts.
Here's the 1v2 double kill by doublelift for those who didn't see it. Also, really wish the commentators actually got excited about things. "wow that was amazing I'm in shock" in complete monotone. wtf.
Here's the 1v2 double kill by doublelift for those who didn't see it. Also, really wish the commentators actually got excited about things. "wow that was amazing I'm in shock" in complete monotone. wtf.
To be honest, I never really though "micro" applied to LoL until I watched Double play AD. It's very reminiscent of BW Marine micro.
Not sure if this has been mentioned but if you want to make bruisers an attractive target instead of buying snowball items buy oracles when they're tanky enough. Nothing says kill me kill me as much as a big pink eye above your head.
Another reason to love Chaox: he just streamed a game where mid, top, and jungle all failed. Hard. Was like 10-5 or something, and doing his best to carry in an uncarryable situation. Spent the whole end of the game talking about his mistakes and what he could have done better and generally being hard on himself for his mistakes.
Edit: it ALMOST makes up for his playing christmas music.
Edit 2: and then he joins a skype call w/ Saint and Chauster and Chaox is saying how he could still have won that game, saint replies that "your team sucked too hard that's all there is too it" and chaox replies "that isn't all there is too it". ♥.
About that doublelift video. It took 7 shots to kill corki. That means silver bolts procced twice for 16% damage + 120. She also tumbled once. Activated a level 2 night hunter for bonus damage, and she tumbled a few times, stealthing and reducing damage since every time she stealthed, corki would not be able to target her for that duration and would have to click on her again to continue attacking.
Everyone knows carries scale exponentially with items, and vayne also had a bloodthirster and zeal so I think her damage output was higher than corki's. Still, there was no reason vayne should have won that fight. It was sloppy play on the other team's part to not have a pink ward or to fear her with a box/use, shaco ult, exhaust earlier. I think they underestimated her.
EPT
