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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On November 15 2011 22:42 Therealdevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 18:51 beef42 wrote:On November 15 2011 18:40 Therealdevil wrote:
Ezreal is the strongest AD carry at the moment, by the way.
Caitlyn, pff. Just has a good laning phase after that she turns into goo with only 1 skill thats actually usefull.
Ezreal has 4. Actually, having more active skills just increases the chance for the player to screw things up. This is why Vayne was so popular a while. So we're asuming a bad player is playing Ezreal? Also, when fighting straight up vs another ad carry as Ezreal, its harder for them to dodge you're skills then for you to hit them, and they lose a lot of time moving around your skills. When teamfighting your range and utility is LOADS higher then the avarage ad (kog has similair utility but without jump but has a pretty big slow) The amount of skills you miss is overall quite low during fights, from my experience, the only time you'll miss a lot is when you're sieging. Also Teut, I also played a lot of Caitlyn, as you might remember, and I just feel that Ezreal has loads more utility and similair damage, if not greater. I also tried Tristana (pre these buffs) and she does have some nice burst early and high utility/damage late but feels like she needs a lot more farm. Also played Kog and Graves, who both feel somewhat broken so I'm not sure that we should put them in this story. Not played Ashe for a while so not sure about her, even tho she should be coming into popularity after all the other ad's getting small nerfs.
It feels like: Ezrael can either stay back and fire Q, W and R at longer range than cait but do less damage, or go into short range to do more damage but at a risky range. Caitlyn can Q at a simialr range to ezraels Q but the general strength is just being at a higher range for her consistent damage. Range is generally what makes trist, kog, and caitlyn really strong. Graves just has burst damage like trist except he doesn't need to jump on top of people to put it out, + insane base stats.
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Too many people base their comments too much on either very early game or very late game. Theres a big middlesection alot of you just skip over. You need high risk high reward champions, champions that can snowball and champions that start strong but will dropoff. That keeps the game fun and the matchups exciting.
The patchnotes in my opinion are very well thought out and I think its abit useless to comment too much now, with hardly any knowledge of the effects on 'proper' games.
2cents
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On November 15 2011 23:01 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:42 shinarit wrote:On November 15 2011 21:46 spinesheath wrote:
Imo there only were 2 really strong masteries for supports in the utility tree that made it worth going 21 utility:
CV mastery
Summoner Cooldowns (and only really for CV, again) You forget CDR and gp/10 (which is now 2 gps, not only 1). Also, i always open with regrowth with Soraka, maybe it will be worth to take points in Wealth so you can buy ward too. Wealth does not become a good mastery simply because you open with a build that is blatantly wrong and just asks for a level 2 gank Not saying it's bad, but your reasoning is.
No, actually my reasoning is good: Wealth is good, because it makes a bad starting item viable. If i open with anything else on Soraka i feel im missing out. I dont need mana regen, any other gp10 build item is too expensive, so i stick with regrowth. Now i will be able to get a ward too.
Btw, i know i wont get away without starting ward in higher Elo, but im not in higher Elo, so whatever. Lvl2 ganks are not too common, and im good with CV to track the jungler.
On November 15 2011 22:55 spinesheath wrote:
6% CDR is nice and all, but on supports other than Soraka hardly comparable to stronger combat stats. Sure you could harrass more often, but you would also recieve retaliation more often...
I couldn't care less about 2 gp/10.
Actually Sona has more dmg from CDR due to her passive.
And 2gp/10 is 2 gp less you have to wait/farm to get your items. gp/10 is always good, especially on supports.
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On November 15 2011 23:17 Phrost wrote:I'm not really sure why they nerfed graves again. They've reduced the bonus damage on buckshot by 10% per bullet and reduced his attack range now. I'm not entirely sure why he has less than all of the ranged carries except sivir (who I think has 450 but you know the like 1000 range skill shot nuke kinda makes up for it )
Sivir has 425 range, still a pain to lane a sivir vs something like cait.
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On November 15 2011 23:34 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 23:01 Shiv. wrote:On November 15 2011 22:42 shinarit wrote:On November 15 2011 21:46 spinesheath wrote:
Imo there only were 2 really strong masteries for supports in the utility tree that made it worth going 21 utility:
CV mastery
Summoner Cooldowns (and only really for CV, again) You forget CDR and gp/10 (which is now 2 gps, not only 1). Also, i always open with regrowth with Soraka, maybe it will be worth to take points in Wealth so you can buy ward too. Wealth does not become a good mastery simply because you open with a build that is blatantly wrong and just asks for a level 2 gank Not saying it's bad, but your reasoning is. No, actually my reasoning is good: Wealth is good, because it makes a bad starting item viable. If i open with anything else on Soraka i feel im missing out. I dont need mana regen, any other gp10 build item is too expensive, so i stick with regrowth. Now i will be able to get a ward too. Btw, i know i wont get away without starting ward in higher Elo, but im not in higher Elo, so whatever. Lvl2 ganks are not too common, and im good with CV to track the jungler.
No, actually your reasoning is still bad - it makes a bad starting item a little less bad. You will miss out on lane control if you don't ward either sidebrush and even if you are good with CVs - there's a huge window after you CV'd their jungler where he has free reign if they know nothing's warded. One ward just doesn't suffice, just because so sacrifice too much map control. Also: mana regen is pretty good, even on Soraka. If you use your E aggressively a lot (which you should, in my opinion), it will come in pretty handy.
I mean, yeah, you can base your decision on the assumption you play against people who don't know what their champs are capable of, but I'm not sure why you would. You'll eventually get better and meet better enemies yourself, so why get into bad habits?
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Found an insightful (IMO) post by Xypherous about surge on the official forums. Thought I'd share it here, as Surge has largely been overlooked compared to everyone lamenting how balance changes are simultaneously too big and too small.
Xypherous wrote:
If you think about it, attack speed already scales over the course of the game, as AD/Crit/Crit Dmg scale attack speed as is. That's why flat attack speed makes sense, as there are other scaling elements that are going up that it is helping.
AP on the other hand, has much fewer synergistic scaling elements and so needs to scale with level as the game progresses.
As for the aura flag, it was adding a lot of unnoticeable power that teammates would frequently ignore and thus we had to tone down the numbers so that Surge was basically invisible to both the caster and his teammates, even though the raw effectiveness was super high. Realizing this, we decided to make it a self-only buff and jack up the numbers so that it would feel good.
As for not giving you raw AD, raw AD is one of the more dangerous stats to give out in mass quantities - partially due to the fact that it is ubiquitously useful (as everyone has an autoattack) but mostly raw AD would help fighters quite a bit more than carries, I believe.
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Why would you need health regen over mana regen as soraka when you have the best heal and an amazing silence poke. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Losing vision over the bushes in the lane is a pretty big deal as well for bottom lane.
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On November 15 2011 23:53 koreasilver wrote:
Why would you need health regen over mana regen as soraka when you have the best heal and an amazing silence poke. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Losing vision over the bushes in the lane is a pretty big deal as well for bottom lane.
Amazing poke, but if the enemy plays offensive or defensive, you wont be able to use it. If offensive, they can cast their stuff before silence hits in, and it usually hits harder than your poke. If defensive, you just cant reach them without getting hurt in the process. Anyway, thats my experience. And heals i spare for my AD, (s)he is the target for most harass.
Also, i usually dont ward the brushes in the lane, why would i? If the lane is not pushed, you should not need it.
edit: but sure you guys have the right of it, i dont really face real opponents, mostly not even support+ad in lane just 2 random carries or semi-carries, so whatever. I need hp more than mana, thats my experience. Since that heal nerf, Soraka is not THAT good with sustain.
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Quite honestly I don't even think that Summoner Cooldowns is very useful for supports anymore. 70 seconds or 59.5 seconds, that still is one hell of a long cooldown on CV. Jungle tracking as we knew it is pretty much out of the window, especially since the new masteries + jungle changes seem to buff junglers in general quite a bit (= faster clear times, flexible paths). It even loses a lot of its value for baron standoffs because you can basically run once around the map while CV is down.
It's definitely still a strong spell, without a doubt. But if you have an Ashe on your team I would really consider picking something else instead.
On November 15 2011 23:34 shinarit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:55 spinesheath wrote:
6% CDR is nice and all, but on supports other than Soraka hardly comparable to stronger combat stats. Sure you could harrass more often, but you would also recieve retaliation more often...
I couldn't care less about 2 gp/10. Actually Sona has more dmg from CDR due to her passive. And 2gp/10 is 2 gp less you have to wait/farm to get your items. gp/10 is always good, especially on supports.
She can harrass with her passive more often and take retaliation damage more often. That's what I already stated. I would rather trade damage less frequently, but deal more damage each time while only taking the same amount of damage as I would otherwise.
g/10 is not the slightest bit better on supports than it is on anyone else.
I actually even argue that it's better on everyone else: Supports are champs that are effective with low amounts of gold. Other champs value gold much higher than supports.
Yeah I know I'm talking against the metagame. I don't care.
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On November 15 2011 23:53 koreasilver wrote:
Why would you need health regen over mana regen as soraka when you have the best heal and an amazing silence poke. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Losing vision over the bushes in the lane is a pretty big deal as well for bottom lane.
Sustain wise, your heal isn't all that good. The silence does 50 damage and the silence itself doesn't do anything for harassment. Makes more sense to get health regen over mana regen on soraka the problem is you should never take health damage unless you harass which you can only really do if you take starcall.
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I'm afraid given how important CV is, we'll see MORE cv's, not less. I wouldn't be surprised to see teams experimenting with double CV's (and not going into utility, but taking the juicier offensive/defensive trees instead). Map control and awareness is just too important in the current meta.
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So after playing a few games already I can tell trist is REALLY strong this patch. Ive been running ghost/cleanse with 21/9/0 and am wrecking face vs kogmaws, graves, etc all day. Only 1500 elo, so Im wondering what you higher ups think.
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Wouldn't support chogath work? He gets insane amounts of health and has silence knock up and true dmg nuke. I have to try this out someday. Offensive masteries op btw
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Sivir + surge = epic lols
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United States1036 Posts
What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen
AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue.
Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense
AD Carry: 24/6/0
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early.
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On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen
AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue.
Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense
AD Carry: 24/6/0
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early.
Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh..
All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change
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United States1036 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:32 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen
AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue.
Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense
AD Carry: 24/6/0
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early. Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh.. All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change
I didn't say don't run it on any jungler. I said I run 21/0/9 if the team needs an early boost. 0/21/9 is ultimately better for late game because most junglers become tanky dps. I would never run defense on Shaco. In fact, I've been thinking of 30/0/0 for him. He was already deadly in the early game without any boost, now he can be really strong.
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On November 15 2011 23:24 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:42 Therealdevil wrote:On November 15 2011 18:51 beef42 wrote:On November 15 2011 18:40 Therealdevil wrote:
Ezreal is the strongest AD carry at the moment, by the way.
Caitlyn, pff. Just has a good laning phase after that she turns into goo with only 1 skill thats actually usefull.
Ezreal has 4. Actually, having more active skills just increases the chance for the player to screw things up. This is why Vayne was so popular a while. So we're asuming a bad player is playing Ezreal? Also, when fighting straight up vs another ad carry as Ezreal, its harder for them to dodge you're skills then for you to hit them, and they lose a lot of time moving around your skills. When teamfighting your range and utility is LOADS higher then the avarage ad (kog has similair utility but without jump but has a pretty big slow) The amount of skills you miss is overall quite low during fights, from my experience, the only time you'll miss a lot is when you're sieging. Also Teut, I also played a lot of Caitlyn, as you might remember, and I just feel that Ezreal has loads more utility and similair damage, if not greater. I also tried Tristana (pre these buffs) and she does have some nice burst early and high utility/damage late but feels like she needs a lot more farm. Also played Kog and Graves, who both feel somewhat broken so I'm not sure that we should put them in this story. Not played Ashe for a while so not sure about her, even tho she should be coming into popularity after all the other ad's getting small nerfs. It feels like: Ezrael can either stay back and fire Q, W and R at longer range than cait but do less damage, or go into short range to do more damage but at a risky range. Caitlyn can Q at a simialr range to ezraels Q but the general strength is just being at a higher range for her consistent damage. Range is generally what makes trist, kog, and caitlyn really strong. Graves just has burst damage like trist except he doesn't need to jump on top of people to put it out, + insane base stats.
That's not how you play that though. Ez shoots Q/W and maybe R until the enemy is low, then you jump in with autos (and a fully stacked passive for 50% faster attacks) and decimate them. You don't rely only on autos or only on abilities for damage, you use both.
Cait's Q is more noticeable with the windup, and therefore way easier to dodge. Ez's comes out so fast that you constantly have to be aware of it and moving. Against Cait, I just move/Shift when I hear the shout that comes before it.
If you land all your Qs and maybe your R here and there, Ez actually has just as high (if not higher) burst than Graves, especially late game.
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Different discussion:
Kog nerfs aren't too big, imoimo. He still outranges Trist by a small amount, he's just not going to be siege-ing you from halfway across the map. Just a quarter now  His damage is just as high, so he'll still drop people before they get to him. Maybe not top AD, but still one of the top.
Cait's nerf isn't a nerf, it's placation for people who thought Cait was OP. Once you get Boots and a Zeal/PD, it'll be a non-issue. It's slightly crappy for people who started DBlade over Boots.
Trist is going to dominate now. I think the base AD boost isn't huge, but it's just enough of a bump (along with the ability tweaks) to bring her up a level.
Graves is still going to be good, but you really, really need to play him aggressively now to make up for the lack of range. His Q is still one of the best pokes (AoE, goes through minions without penalty), his ASPD/mobility E is still amazing, and Smoke Bomb is still the best Ranged AD utility in the game right now.
And still fuck Sion. I hate that guy.
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On November 16 2011 00:35 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 00:32 Iplaythings wrote:On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
What does everyone think of these Masteries setups?
Sustaining Top: 0/21/9 < - get everything that gives regen
AP Carry: 21/0/9 <- XD dat Annie burst! Get runic mastery on utility to extend the duration of blue.
Support: 8/0/22 <- Mental Force + Sorcery on Offense
AD Carry: 24/6/0
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
Ganking Jungle: 21/0/9 <- Shaco must run this. Other junglers run this if the team is weak in the early game or the other team is super strong early. Dont see why you'd run 0/21/9 on any jungler other than amumu tbh.. All benefit soo much from the old 21/0/9, doubt that's gonna change I don't run it on any jungler. I said I run 21/0/9 if the team needs an early boost. 0/21/9 is ultimately better for late game because most junglers become tanky dps. I would never run defense on Shaco. In fact, I've been thinking of 30/0/0 for him. He was already deadly in the early game without any boost, now he can be really strong.
Well but you seem to have misunderstood something, unless my whole philosophy of jungling is wrong, jungling fast early game makes for a strong mid game and that makes for a strong late game.
The defensive masteries may be stronger in lategame but I doubt they are stronger in setting you up for a good position.. Idk though I haven't tried out the new masteries, but things such as the 3% lifesteal passively seems so strong (which is completely neglected after you've gotten wriggles as they removed 3% from wriggles).
To clear it off: in my experiences (with the old masteries, I admit) is: build your jungler as offensive and fast as possible without it making you riddicolously fragile, I've found a way to make longsword 1 potion, 21/0/9 and offensive runes barring the seals, which I probally would experiment with changing the armor runes I have to AS (I'd DEFINITLY do this on junglers such as WW or Udyr with a really strong sustain).
On November 16 2011 00:28 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Sustaining Jungle: 0/21/9 <- Most Junglers should take this
As I said above, I don't know about the new masteries but this doesn't work with my philosophy at all
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EPT
