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I actually don't think Kat's ult is really her problem, maybe I'm crazy. She can channel it on one person(her range is short-ish as is so she's still 'in' the fight regardless, but nowhere near the middle) if the situation is really that bad, and she vultures with the best of them(except maybe Kass). You can't theorycraft in a vacuum where she has no team to coordinate with.
I think it's actually healthy for the game a) for there to be a unique champ like her and b) for there to be champs that function in a niche, even if that kind of sucks for those champ players. You see the other team lacking directable CC that they can afford to hold during a fight? Pick Kat, rape face(if you watched CLG streams after their loss to RS they were talking about how smart the pick was because really their only CC was Alistar, who uses his combo to initiate, and can't afford to derp around waiting for Kat to ult before he Q/W's).
So Janna completely dicks her over(just an example). Tough luck, Janna fucks over a lot of other champs as well, welcome to the club.
Edit: That second point is more geared toward competitive play. So in essence it's a pipe dream. Riot is clearly balancing with 'everyone' in mind, and then slightly adjusting for gross imbalances in competition. Ideally the game should stop being about 'ban OP1, 2, 3, 4, pick best available in role a b x y z'(oversimplification). We're starting to see some examples of teams moving forward from this, but we're a long long long ways from the DotA style picks/bans, where teams will only 'snipe' ban a champ if someone is fucking legendarily good with them, otherwise they ban champs that mess with their idea of how the game will go(pick push comp->ban turtles). A big part of that is on the balancing team: homogenization of champions(and roles) means you ban the best, pick the best available, ignore everything else; so sad.
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On September 13 2011 01:49 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 01:03 Two_DoWn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ya the passive being changed would be a given, I would have it shift to adding bonus damage to her skills instead of ap.
But here was my rational with the ap ratios, based on my playing with karma.
1- shield is really really good, provided you can get enough ap to make it worth it.
2- her q does decent damage, heal is nice, but again, you need a lot of ap.
3- her w is terrible, mostly since it doesnt damage the one you tether to, and her utility with it is terrible since she has the potential to do a lot of damage when farmed
4- her kit is terrible late game as ap carry, even with all the farm in the world, not enough mantara, cds too long.
So my thought is that you hit the ap ratios but compensate with big buffs on base damage to make her capable of hitting usefulness without having to waste a solo lane for your team. I dont think she can ever be an effective ap carry simply because her kit is not designed for it. Therefore I design her to be put bot lane, where she wont get farm, but higher base damages compensate for that. Then I go ahead and make the changes to her w to make it more utility- damage on tether, maybe add some silences or something.
But ya
l
V I am madly in love with her kit as a late game AP carry. I don't understand this complaint at all. Mid game will always be her problem as this is where most AP carries bust a nut all over the opposing team's face and Karma just doesn't have a level 2 ultimate that AoE stuns for 600,000,000 damage off of just 40 AP. Once you get to late game where Brand/Annie/Ori/Gragas don't just 2 shot for a triple kill, Karma's kit provides absurd damage swings on relatively low CDs and level 6 Spirit Bond is really really bonkers on a farmed tank.
Yeah, I agree with this. When you play with a ridiculous "always farm/heal never die" hero like Singed/Irelia/Jax, you can completely wreck an entire team with mantra leash and mantra AoE nukes on their whole team while providing 600+ strength shields for said hero. An AP carry doesn't always have to provide "8 million damage loloool" as people have said earlier in this thread. Zilean is a prime example, and teams like tsm can manage to make team comps work with him in mid. Karma provides a shit-ton of damage with quite a bit of utility on the side.
I'm still in love with Karma and will play her as an AP carry in arranged games until they either nerf her into the ground or change her entire kit to make it support-centric....
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The thing about Wriggles is that you're basically getting 7 armor, 8 AD, and 6% lifesteal in addition to the increased proc chance for a negative combine cost (since the 150g is two wards). This pushes it from being an upgrade for champs who want Razors anyway (e.g. junglers) into an item that's just so stupidly efficient that you buy Razors just to get a Wriggles.
There's no real way to make it as good as it is now for junglers while making it bad for laners unless you do something terribly inelegant involving a distinction between neutral creeps and enemy minions. That said, pretty much every jungler who gets it can stay full HP in the jungle with Razors + Vamp Scepter so there's room to make it worse. If you make it proc, say, 25% of the time instead of 20% but get rid of the AD/armor/lifesteal increase from combining it still looks very attractive for the jungle but I expect it looks less attractive in lane because you get less sustain and worse stats against champions (I dunno, I don't buy it in lane because I mainly lane casters or supports). In return you are able to push harder, for what that's worth.
(You'd still get it for jungling because you need AD + armor + lifesteal on basically all the junglers who buy Wriggles anyway. Razor itself is reasonably efficient for just the AD + armor on it, and you really can't get the same jungle speed increase for the same gold from anything else.)
This is probably a nerf to the item overall because you'll lose damage and survivability in ganks and lategame, but the item might well be too strong as-is anyway and you can clear camps a bit faster so you get more gold or at least more time to pressure lanes.
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, I don't even see Wriggle's being "too good" for laners right now. It has perfectly good tradeoffs vs. Doran's stack. If you hit Wriggle's super hard, all you do is ruin that tradeoff, and end up not hurting laners that hard (since they'll just Doran's Stack if Wriggle's is straight-up worse), and hurt junglers across the board.
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I don't like that doran's stack is good either
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I dunno, I think I'm fine with where Wriggles is also but just assuming that Riot already has decided they don't like it, in which case I think making the minion damage proc more common but hitting the stats would be an interesting change.
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On September 13 2011 03:30 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I don't even see Wriggle's being "too good" for laners right now. It has perfectly good tradeoffs vs. Doran's stack. If you hit Wriggle's super hard, all you do is ruin that tradeoff, and end up not hurting laners that hard (since they'll just Doran's Stack if Wriggle's is straight-up worse), and hurt junglers across the board.
Mhmm, there's a significant disadvantage in pure damage and health to going Wriggles over 3xDBlades, plus it's cheaper. If they think opening Wriggles on bottom laners is too strong, change the ward cooldown time and see how that goes.
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On September 13 2011 03:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:30 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I don't even see Wriggle's being "too good" for laners right now. It has perfectly good tradeoffs vs. Doran's stack. If you hit Wriggle's super hard, all you do is ruin that tradeoff, and end up not hurting laners that hard (since they'll just Doran's Stack if Wriggle's is straight-up worse), and hurt junglers across the board. Mhmm, there's a significant disadvantage in pure damage and health to going Wriggles over 3xDBlades, plus it's cheaper. If they think opening Wriggles on bottom laners is too strong, change the ward cooldown time and see how that goes.
Kinda irrelevant to teh Wriggle's discussion but...regarding wards. Riot really should take a leaf out of DotA's book and put freaking timers on wards in the shop. It's just ridiculous how easy it is to get wards and shut down the map. I'd also advocate a Smoke of Deceit-like item but iunno how well that'd fly at Riot HQ. Reason being, DotA also had the issue of passivity the way LoL does right now. After Icefrog released Smoke, gank strats became a LOT more common and the gameplay is a ton less passive.
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Oracle still gets rid of wards, don´t really see a problem with so many wards with oracle and pink wards in the game.
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On September 13 2011 03:30 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, I don't even see Wriggle's being "too good" for laners right now. It has perfectly good tradeoffs vs. Doran's stack. If you hit Wriggle's super hard, all you do is ruin that tradeoff, and end up not hurting laners that hard (since they'll just Doran's Stack if Wriggle's is straight-up worse), and hurt junglers across the board.
Not to mention I really like that I have options when I play AD carry. Stack doran's buy BF sword every game is really boring. It's fun to rush wriggle's and help your team get a super early dragon. And honestly like you said it's a trade off because if I go wriggle's first the opposing AD can get their core build quicker than me and out damage me in early fights.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:36 UniversalSnip wrote:
I don't like that doran's stack is good either
Why not?
Is there something wrong with being able to itemize toward early-game stats at the cost of lategame strength?
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On September 13 2011 03:47 JackDino wrote:
Oracle still gets rid of wards, don´t really see a problem with so many wards with oracle and pink wards in the game.
The problem with oracles is that dying with it on effectively makes your death worth 400 gold more to the other team.... It's much different than putting a cooldown timer on wards in the shop, which I really think they should do. Any character with half a brain buys a ward or two on every trip back, and every support is buying 4 or 5. If you've got a reasonable amount of map control, then it's simple to have 5+ wards locking down the river, plus a few in the opposing jungle.
The ward cooldown should really be tested on some sort of PTR that only good players are invited to.
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On September 13 2011 03:47 JackDino wrote:
Oracle still gets rid of wards, don´t really see a problem with so many wards with oracle and pink wards in the game.
Riot's been harping about oracles for a while. Also, the existence of oracles and pink wards don't address the issue of passivity because they're too expensive. Losing an oracles early is a huge hit on a team, which is why a lot of teams don't get oracles all that early.
Even then, the current setup of wards/oracles makes for very passive gameplay, which Riot doesn't like. I just don't understand why they're trying to address that with stuff like jungle remake when the biggest problem is that wards are too damn strong by virtue of being so easy to spam.
Also, after watching the DotA2 invitational, I really liked the Smoke of Deceit item. It's basically an item that gives invisibility to all team members in an AoE + slight movespeed boost. This basically lets roamers and gankers travel the map much faster while being able to avoid wards and creep vision. Icefrog avoids making it completely imba by making it so that the invisibility automatically goes away when you enter something like 900 range of an enemy champ or tower. Basically, what this does is it raises the viability of roamers by nerfing wards hard indirectly. I think it's also worth noting that the mechanics for Smoke is very similar to some of the ideas for the upcoming stealth remake.
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wards also need to be reworked. Make green wards and pink wards cost the same, but pink wards have reduced vision and can only see invis... just like in dota. Then raise cost of oracles to 600 and turn it into a cooldown dust instead of permanent invis.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:52 Caller wrote:
wards also need to be reworked. Make green wards and pink wards cost the same, but pink wards have reduced vision and can only see invis... just like in dota. Then raise cost of oracles to 600 and turn it into a cooldown dust instead of permanent invis.
I actually like this because it makes the cost of counter-warding more granular, and seeing as people don't actually counterward with pinks that often right now, that could probably lead to more interesting play.
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Actually on that note Caller a "dust of appearance" item like wc3 ladder would be interesting instead of pink wards. It'd be one use obviously instead of a 3 minute sort of thing, but if it cost 25 gold and had short range I think it'd be fairly balanced. Essentially you'd use it to destroy a ward you saw somebody place, or guess to possibly lose 25 gold.
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cv needs to get reamed too.
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On September 13 2011 04:00 Mogwai wrote:
cv needs to get reamed too.
Yeah I agree. Should be renamed to Scanner Sweep. OR the less subtle Map Hack
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Because buing a consumable invis item is so much cheaper than buying a pink ward which not only opens up lanes for ganks, but also serves as a - gosh - ward.
Basically a pink ward does rougly the same as this smoke of deceit for 25 gold. Slightly less powerful, but perfectly appropriate for LoL.
If Riot wants to change oracles, I personally would make them cheaper (300 gold?), but with a timer (4 minutes?) AND the loss on death.
(but that change would make me question the existance of pink wards)
By the way guys, you need 3 wards to cover bottom lane properly. Purple can do with 2, but then they lack a Dragon ward and can't push the lane. So don't give me this "only need 1 or 2 wards" crap. Top only needs 2, and if you finish with another 2 in mid you covered the whole map. But that's 7 wards. 525 gold every 3 minutes. Not all that cheap.
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On September 13 2011 03:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 03:36 UniversalSnip wrote:
I don't like that doran's stack is good either Why not?
they give too much durability and homogenize item builds
Is there something wrong with being able to itemize toward early-game stats at the cost of lategame strength?
lol, I guess that's a debate tactic or something
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EPT
