EPTThe channel stuff just doesn't work against people that have any reaction speed to speak of. It can work for some skills but not an ulti wich houses the majority of your damage, that's just crazy.
[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 209
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
The channel stuff just doesn't work against people that have any reaction speed to speak of. It can work for some skills but not an ulti wich houses the majority of your damage, that's just crazy. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:22 Southlight wrote: Except her laning sucks now (I believe redtooth or someone chimed in last week saying this) compared to what it needs to be, and Q/E are no longer as effective relative to the power levels of other heroes as they used to be. yeah, i think this is her problem, not her ult she just got power creeped. all she really needs are some minor tweaks to catch her up (base stats? c/d on W? mana costs jklol) and some people to start playing her again and she's fine. i hope they don't do a total rework. pretty much what they did to annie, do to kat, but maybe even a little less drastic. in fact i'd rather kat be a bit UP than OP simply because of the no-mana dilemma or instead of that, just give killer instincts -> bouncing blade a minor slow instead of healing reduction. viola, totally fresh champ | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 12 2011 23:33 MoonBear wrote: About the upcoming patch. What would you guys think about these things happening? Legal Disclaimer: This is not what the actual patch looks like.
Taric having an actual gamechanger ult would probably push him further into the jungle role. If they want him to still be support it would be kinda cool to see a pure utility ult on him, maybe an anivia type wall of gems or something. Bruisers top are fine imo. I still think that the instant answer to any sort of tanky dps "problem" would be the reintroduction of the old last whisper. But atm I dont think they are too strong. Wriggles will always be super effective because it is an item designed to help jungles, where the actual threshold for tank is WAY to high compared to laning. Until they change the jungle, they cant hurt wriggles too much or they break the game basically. Cass is strong, but I still think that some quality of life changes and pushing her into a more ryze role than she is currently would be better than the current hit or miss. Karma is just stupid. She is a classic example of riot trying to avoid the problems of a class by sort of doing things well but not really. Her shield is really good, but only if you have ap. Her heal is decent, but it involves being way to close. Her tether is decent, but only if you have singed. And overall she REALLY needs farm to make her kit work. If it were me, I would destroy her ratios and giver her huge buffs to base damage, and an extra mantra stack for 2 shields and a heal in fights. That way she can actually play support bot lane and not feel shitty about not having a solo. Cuz her kit is nice for laning, but terrible if you want her to be your ap carry late game. Sion just needs his ult to give spellvamp, maybe have e give bonus ap. Morg was already really good, I called the changes making her op a month ago. Maybe hit sustain a bit, as she really cant be forced out of lane at all. Kat I already said, w+r=uninterruptible, but a % less damage. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Karma is just stupid. She is a classic example of riot trying to avoid the problems of a class by sort of doing things well but not really. Her shield is really good, but only if you have ap. Her heal is decent, but it involves being way to close. Her tether is decent, but only if you have singed. And overall she REALLY needs farm to make her kit work. If it were me, I would destroy her ratios and giver her huge buffs to base damage, and an extra mantra stack for 2 shields and a heal in fights. That way she can actually play support bot lane and not feel shitty about not having a solo. Cuz her kit is nice for laning, but terrible if you want her to be your ap carry late game. uhg, no no no no no no no. and creeps don't need a nerf :p. Anyway, back to Karma... First off, with you suggestion, you need to change her passive, which is half the reason she's awesome. Second off, this sort of destroying AP ratios only works on kits with crazy utility that doesn't rely on numbers. The reason is quite simple. If her utility comes from numbers, if you buff the base values so high that they're actually strong without AP, she'll dominate people in lane all the harder and then just build stupid team utility shit or tanking shit and be crazy strong still. As it is right now, her utility is a speed/slow and then PURE FUCKING NUMBERS. So simply put you can't make her AP-independent without breaking her stupid hard. Someone like Alistar or Sona who provides auras/CC etc, can work fine being AP-independent, but a kit like Karma's simply can't be balanced around being AP independent. So basically you'd have to retool her whole kit to make her "work" as a 0-farm support, and fuck that, she's cool as she is, continue to balance her as a support the same way Morgana and Zilean are balanced as support. The 1 thing that would be cool on Karma that I don't think would imbalance her would be to make her Tether do damage to an enemy it was leashed to when Mantra charged and have her Tether heal an ally it was leashed to when Mantra charged. It would make the ability much more attractive and with the Mantra constraints wouldn't break her laning. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
But here was my rational with the ap ratios, based on my playing with karma. 1- shield is really really good, provided you can get enough ap to make it worth it. 2- her q does decent damage, heal is nice, but again, you need a lot of ap. 3- her w is terrible, mostly since it doesnt damage the one you tether to, and her utility with it is terrible since she has the potential to do a lot of damage when farmed 4- her kit is terrible late game as ap carry, even with all the farm in the world, not enough mantara, cds too long. So my thought is that you hit the ap ratios but compensate with big buffs on base damage to make her capable of hitting usefulness without having to waste a solo lane for your team. I dont think she can ever be an effective ap carry simply because her kit is not designed for it. Therefore I design her to be put bot lane, where she wont get farm, but higher base damages compensate for that. Then I go ahead and make the changes to her w to make it more utility- damage on tether, maybe add some silences or something. But ya l V | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:37 Two_DoWn wrote: Taric having an actual gamechanger ult would probably push him further into the jungle role. If they want him to still be support it would be kinda cool to see a pure utility ult on him, maybe an anivia type wall of gems or something. Bruisers top are fine imo. I still think that the instant answer to any sort of tanky dps "problem" would be the reintroduction of the old last whisper. But atm I dont think they are too strong. Wriggles will always be super effective because it is an item designed to help jungles, where the actual threshold for tank is WAY to high compared to laning. Until they change the jungle, they cant hurt wriggles too much or they break the game basically. Cass is strong, but I still think that some quality of life changes and pushing her into a more ryze role than she is currently would be better than the current hit or miss. Karma is just stupid. She is a classic example of riot trying to avoid the problems of a class by sort of doing things well but not really. Her shield is really good, but only if you have ap. Her heal is decent, but it involves being way to close. Her tether is decent, but only if you have singed. And overall she REALLY needs farm to make her kit work. If it were me, I would destroy her ratios and giver her huge buffs to base damage, and an extra mantra stack for 2 shields and a heal in fights. That way she can actually play support bot lane and not feel shitty about not having a solo. Cuz her kit is nice for laning, but terrible if you want her to be your ap carry late game. Sion just needs his ult to give spellvamp, maybe have e give bonus ap. Morg was already really good, I called the changes making her op a month ago. Maybe hit sustain a bit, as she really cant be forced out of lane at all. Kat I already said, w+r=uninterruptible, but a % less damage. twodown you have the worst ideas you know how you're always saying "hire me riot and i'll fix your game" i agree 100% you should be hired and everything you say balance-wise, riot should do the opposite. creeps should do double damage, if kat does w + r her ult should fizzle, last whisper should give you reduced attack speed, taric should have NO ult, and karma's scaling should be doubled. seriously. i would prefer these changes to the ones you listed. i would prefer for kat's ult to fizzle than for it to be uninterruptable. you just have no idea about the scope of the changes you listed (and list, frequently) and it's so annoying | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
i like kat's w, this game has too few healing reduction as it is, which since the game is rewarding fucking sustain assholes, is a good way to say sup. Seriously though, this game has favored dumb champs with some sort of sustain in top lane. Sustain in general I feel is too strong on everybody but the guys who need it the most-melee dps like Master Yi (Jax does not count, that guy gets 3k hp from building nothing but gunblades). Let's take a look at sustain: spell vamp: good idea in theory, but shit in execution. When spells fucking SCALE and have CDR, combined with the revamped increased base mana regen, it makes casters so much stronger and lets them sit in lane for three hours. Spell vamp is the reason why people hate vlad, and now with shit like gunblade morde becoming popular (fuck that build its stupid) it should be obvious that spell vamp is a broken mechanic. People with a low-risk passive sustain (warwick, udyr, irelia). It'd be fine if the sustain required them to take a risk/cost to get off (for example, morde's shield costs hp, kayle's heal drains her tiny mana pool, nasus/xin zhao has to actually hit things while unprotected, Morgana's abilities have high cooldowns for their spell vamp), but look. Warwick can q a creep for 20% of his hp. Udyr can steal life AND mana while having a fucking shield. Irelia can press R and heal herself to full hp every 40 seconds. And I'm leaving out all the people with dumb shields (Rumble, Jarvan, Morgana to an extent). Support champs. My personal enemy, but we'll leave that aside for now. The problem with support champs is this: they're fucking unavoidable. Let's look at DotA for example. There are three ways to get into bottom lane between the two towers, and two ways to get in between first and second towers. This means that to spot incoming enemies properly, one would need to ward twice. In LoL, you only need to ward one area, really. This shit encourages passive play. On top of that, supports combined with flash make a lane virtually impossible to gank. Again, more passive play. The idea of short cooldown, no penalty heals is broken. Not to mention the non-stop cc that inevitably happens from having short cd abilities that supports can friggin spam. There is no need for either side to take risks, because the risks are too high for a reward that is too uncertain and too low. Again, passive, boring as fuck play. Mechanics that will make me happy, end the inanity, and give me a hard on. -Remember that "CANNOT BE SLOWED" shit? Remember how fucking awesome it was? Put it back. There was nothing quite as satisfying as watching some cocky asshole range dps with red buff get his ass whipped by the power of CANNOTBESLOWED Demacia. -Healing Reduction. Put this shit back. The more of it there is, the weaker the sustain assholes get, the happier I am, the more fun this game is. Anti-CC. I'm not talking about Irelia herp cannot be stunned, I'm talking about champions that either get more buff or in some way penalize the enemy based on if they are ccd or not. Like CC chains are too damn strong right now and prevent ganks. Make a champ with a mechanic, call it like, I dunno, Bloodlust. Maybe it'd be like this. Bloodlust. When Bloodlust is active, if Champion is stunned/slowed/whatever, he gets even more furious for blood, increasing movement speed/attack speed/lifesteal by X and reducing the effect of future CC by X. Or maybe something like this. Can't Touch This. Being CCd gives X Champion Can't Touch This for 3 seconds. He is immune to CC while he can't be touched. DUN DUN DUN DUN OHHH DUN DUN OHHH DUN DUN OHHH DUN. -Buff Breaking. Too many "buff" type abilities are castable without any sort of fear from a purge or something like that that would be well needed. It's retarded how you can put 5000000 shields and attack speed boosts and etc. etc. etc. on a single champ without fear of reprisal. While I'm not saying we should put Medusa into the game, I feel that breaking a "protect the ranged dps with 500000 shield" would be a good thing for the game since shields just promote low risk high reward play. Have like a champion that breaks all buffs on a target and deals damage based on the amount of buffs removed. Or maybe a champ that steals buffs from a target and takes them for himself. Because while I understand that people don't like mana burn because it makes you feel "helpless" against certain enemies, I can tell you I feel just as helpless against an annie or alistar as I do against a fed antimage with diffusal blade. This will not only make supports weaker while still keeping their utility, but it will make bottom lane a hell lot less boring and might even encourage new strategies aside from HERP DERP SOLO TOP AND MID DPS SUPPORT BOT JUNGLER. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
I didnt say to add old lw back, mostly because I dont think you need it since bruisers are op. I just threw out the idea to moonbear that would completely eliminate the tanky dps problem he seems to think still exists. Karma reasoning above. Kat- Riot has shown in the past they are highly against giving champions strong early games, so the chances that kat gets put back to where she was in terms of laning strength are nil. That leaves her ult. I think that giving players the option of having a full duration ult that does, say 50% less damage or having a full power one that could get interrupted adds an interesting dynamic to her. You could easily balance that as well, since if it is too strong, you just knock the % up further, and dont actually have to change the spell itself, keeping the feel of the champion. As for minions, I hate the fact that 2 champions, standing and exchanging auttoattacks with each other do LESS DAMAGE TO EACH OTHER THAN THE FREAKIN MINIONS DO TO THEM. ITS PVP, NOT PVE. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:13 Southlight wrote: fyifyi Caller Irelia's R hardly heals anymore :> i dont care my point is the same, if its not irelia its yorick or chogath or XYZ riot you guys should listen to me im 1900 real high super fake plat elo and i totally didn't break the terms of service or anything in fact hire me i fix ur game real good we crush dota 2 ez | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
Also, top lane is stupid. Virtually every hero that's commonly played solo top can completely ignore harass from their opponent and just afk farm waves by level 7 or so. At no point in lane in DotA could you just run past your opponent to kill a creep wave while he spammed autoattacks/spells at you and be fine, but this happens ALL the time in League. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
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Lanzoma
Mexico813 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:51 Mogwai wrote: The 1 thing that would be cool on Karma that I don't think would imbalance her would be to make her Tether do damage to an enemy it was leashed to when Mantra charged and have her Tether heal an ally it was leashed to when Mantra charged. It would make the ability much more attractive and with the Mantra constraints wouldn't break her laning. I support this change 100%. Might need slightly more than this, but with such a strong laning, you have to err on the side of caution and go slowly. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:03 Two_DoWn wrote: Ya the passive being changed would be a given, I would have it shift to adding bonus damage to her skills instead of ap. But here was my rational with the ap ratios, based on my playing with karma. 1- shield is really really good, provided you can get enough ap to make it worth it. 2- her q does decent damage, heal is nice, but again, you need a lot of ap. 3- her w is terrible, mostly since it doesnt damage the one you tether to, and her utility with it is terrible since she has the potential to do a lot of damage when farmed 4- her kit is terrible late game as ap carry, even with all the farm in the world, not enough mantara, cds too long. So my thought is that you hit the ap ratios but compensate with big buffs on base damage to make her capable of hitting usefulness without having to waste a solo lane for your team. I dont think she can ever be an effective ap carry simply because her kit is not designed for it. Therefore I design her to be put bot lane, where she wont get farm, but higher base damages compensate for that. Then I go ahead and make the changes to her w to make it more utility- damage on tether, maybe add some silences or something. But ya l V I am madly in love with her kit as a late game AP carry. I don't understand this complaint at all. Mid game will always be her problem as this is where most AP carries bust a nut all over the opposing team's face and Karma just doesn't have a level 2 ultimate that AoE stuns for 600,000,000 damage off of just 40 AP. Once you get to late game where Brand/Annie/Ori/Gragas don't just 2 shot for a triple kill, Karma's kit provides absurd damage swings on relatively low CDs and level 6 Spirit Bond is really really bonkers on a farmed tank. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On September 13 2011 01:49 Mogwai wrote: I am madly in love with her kit as a late game AP carry. I don't understand this complaint at all. Mid game will always be her problem as this is where most AP carries bust a nut all over the opposing team's face and Karma just doesn't have a level 2 ultimate that AoE stuns for 600,000,000 damage off of just 40 AP. Once you get to late game where Brand/Annie/Ori/Gragas don't just 2 shot for a triple kill, Karma's kit provides absurd damage swings on relatively low CDs and level 6 Spirit Bond is really really bonkers on a farmed tank. I dunno. I just feel like shit as her cuz i re, w&q, then are faced with the choice of rq for a heal and lose a HUGE chunk of damage or re and not have a heal. | ||
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Craton
United States17281 Posts
On September 13 2011 00:19 BouBou.865 wrote: That, or you could give Kat a free blink on her ult. That way she wouldn't get lolflashed every time. No. Having skills with synergy (e+r) is what you should be shooting for. Both e and r will be up many more times before flash will be up again. | ||
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