EPT[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 158
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:49 Two_DoWn wrote: Her mid-late game is shit. Absolute shit. She just doesnt have enough mantra do do the things she needs to do, even without the flash bug. I actually almost exclusively use mantra for her shield and I dont run out of it during teamfights at all. Heres what I think so far: Lanes: She can lane top and mid very well. I never encountered a lane that I lost so far in my 10 or so games (norm and ranked). I believe she would do quite well as a support with a melee (jax, talon, panth, wukong comes to mind) early: she completely destroyes the early game soloing. Very easy to survive ganks and very easy to push turret. And super fucking easy to farm. mid: she feels like a super support or sth. Almost never getting kills but tons of assists while not dieing and protecting/speeding teammates. Her burst potential is pretty huge if you manage to hit a target with all three spells. Her W turns out to be very usefull to pin melee champions and kite them with an ad carry. That being said: You can clearly feel that she has no ultimate. late: dunno yet I've built roa, lucidity and dcap/rilays far. I even think she is one of the rare candidates who can build a soulstealer. Thinking about getting SS after Roa now. Iam really not sure if she is strong or not. I got the best results with her playing in a double ap lineup soloing top. I think this is a huge factor. If you have an ap jungler and a bruiser top then I guess you can go mid as well and do fine. The thing is that she doesnt bring that much of a burst as most common ap carries thus double ap fits her better. Another reason is that shields and heals dont get lowered by mr so you dont counter that good against a double ap with karma in it. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Have you ever laned Karma? She's about sustainability and burst, you heal by mantraing your Q while damaging your opponent at the same time and frequently you'll mantra your E at the same time to burst them really hard while healing. This is what makes her good at laning if you take away one of her mantra stacks then she can only mantra her Q's which is much shorter range and easier to avoid than her Mantra E's. Hence taking away her laning presence. Essentially... You only really spam mantra on your E's if you want to push the lane real hard, the rest of the time you save it for healing with Q and surprise RERQ bursts on your opponent. I really really want them to buff Karma so I can abuse her in solo queue. I would pick her every game but people keep thinking I'm picking support even though I always explicitly say that I'm going AP carry.... Edit: I think roa -> zhonya would be a good route to work on, since I've kind of gotten over my 3x DRing -> deathcap build phase. I used to swear by it, but it leaves you much squishier in lane and teamfights, and as karma you're probably going to be right in the line of fire. | ||
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chubbly
New Zealand58 Posts
I get the feeling it would take more than number tweaks to fix her. I'm still curious what you guys think those tweaks would be. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Have you ever laned Karma? She's about sustainability and burst, you heal by mantraing your Q while damaging your opponent at the same time and frequently you'll mantra your E at the same time to burst them really hard while healing. This is what makes her good at laning if you take away one of her mantra stacks then she can only mantra her Q's which is much shorter range and easier to avoid than her Mantra E's. Hence taking away her laning presence. I have played Karma before and I essentially only ever need to mantra E. The heal on Q is pretty shitty at early levels and you're much better off just opening boots+3pot if you really feel like you need the regen. Imo, you should never mantra Q in lane unless you absolutely need that heal to live. It's simply not worth the charge and mana cost. Also, if you're good with your E you can avoid a ton of your opponent's harass. There's no way your opponent will ever punch through your shield with AP runes. It's the same concept as supporting with Janna; you want to prevent damage rather than retroactively heal it up. | ||
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Lanzoma
Mexico813 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:12 chubbly wrote: I'm curious as to what Karma players think must change in her kit for her to be more viable. Not being a Karma player myself, I presume just giving her another mantra at 11 and 16 would make her crazy OP? Take this with a grain of salt, my experience is very limited. The role of the AP carry mid right now is to provide the biggest threat during mid-game, usually accomplished through the ability to almost one-shot anybody (sometimes more than one person) with a spell rotation. You need a mix of CC and raw damage to achieve this without immediately dying yourself. Karma's W is both her CC (soft) and the last portion of damage necessary to become a threat. The problem is that dealing damage with W is really awkward because of the way it works, and lacking an ultimate, that just leaves you with 2 spells. The passive is probably meant to offset this by giving you a huge chunk of AP, but the way it works makes it so that it's either extremely useful (vs dps) or completely useless (bursted to death). It also means your passive does nothing when you want to initiate yourself. So really the problem is that she is beyond obnoxious in small skirmishes but mediocre in hard engages 5v5. All your spells are AoE which means you have awesome potential, but in reality it's hard to position yourself to do so as the battles grow in size. Having said all that, I don't think her kit is wrong. Having champions that serve different roles is good, they're just harder to place in teams. To answer your question directly, Reduce the range on W, make it do damage on the cast target, and either increase the leash range or the haste/slow effect. This gives her more reliable damage without making her laning completely and utterly broken (maybe it will anyway!), as well as give you more leniency in positioning. Another option is changing her passive completely, given how unreliable it is. I can't think of any good alternatives though. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:59 HyperionDreamer wrote: Edit: I think roa -> zhonya would be a good route to work on, since I've kind of gotten over my 3x DRing -> deathcap build phase. I used to swear by it, but it leaves you much squishier in lane and teamfights, and as karma you're probably going to be right in the line of fire. The main thing that makes me feel Catalyst is hard to justify is that Karma doesn't really make good use of the heal proc. She loves the mana, but she has a natural heal and a shield, so the heal proc doesn't really contribute that much to your lane sustain--and that puts her in the same boat as a lot of self-sustaining AP carries (Gragas, old AP Ali) where because the Cata proc is somewhat wasted, it can't compete with DRing stack on efficiency in lane. Naturally, going Rod is kind of silly if Catalyst isn't the laning item you want to use. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:13 TheYango wrote: The main thing that makes me feel Catalyst is hard to justify is that Karma doesn't really make good use of the heal proc. She loves the mana, but she has a natural heal and a shield, so the heal proc doesn't really contribute that much to your lane sustain--and that puts her in the same boat as a lot of self-sustaining AP carries (Gragas, old AP Ali) where because the Cata proc is somewhat wasted, it can't compete with DRing stack on efficiency in lane. I kinda disagree. Karma's mana costs are already pretty damn high. Every time you use manta+Q to heal yourself, it's quite the waste of the mantra stack and mana. Even then, the heal from the Q is pretty shitty at low levels without much AP. By getting a catalyst, you can get more lane sustain without really ever having to use RQ except in clutch situations. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
I don't play a whole lot of Karma and I never get passed blue buff when I play, but even so I don't feel like I NEED the D-rings all that much and her damage is only mediocre relative to other AP carries unless you abuse her absurd laning strength by getting big AP items faster. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:08 chubbly wrote: So I'm still not getting a clear picture as to how she could be changed to make her more viable. Giving her more mantras would apparently make her more OP but wouldn't buffing her skills just make it equally as bad? I get the feeling it would take more than number tweaks to fix her. I'm still curious what you guys think those tweaks would be. I really dont think she needs any changing. Figuring her out is the thing. She came out with the support tag and ppl found her to be useless. Only a few ppl play her. She is also not the most straight forward champion, not saying that its very hard to play her but I definitely had to play her a couple games before I started to enjoy her and doing stuff right. I mean her numbers are pretty good. From scalings to passive everything fits. Only her ult is awkward and hitting W on ppl is not the easyiest thing either. But i feel with only lucidity boots and the occasional bluebuff then not even the mantra stacks are a problem. I think the main issues to figure out are: lineup, build(s) and behaviour in midgame/lategame. hsgg the is probably the best known karma player and he tends to just push like crazy with her. Thats definitely a thing she can do very fucking well. So far I experienced that she is freaking good at protecting ad carries during fights as well. This is why I call her a super support. edit: On September 08 2011 08:21 Juicyfruit wrote: Can probably just rush a deathcap on Karma in most lanes. Sustain is nice but fairly moot if you can 1-shot waves while having a shield on yourself. I don't play a whole lot of Karma and I never get passed blue buff when I play, but even so I don't feel like I NEED the D-rings all that much and her damage is only mediocre relative to other AP carries unless you abuse her absurd laning strength by getting big AP items faster. rod of ages just fits her so nicely cuz A) she can get it pretty damn fast and B) it synergizes with her passive and C) with her allready strong laneing. I think you also need to not get 1shotted with her because her Q has a very short range. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
what synergizes with Karma's passive? DEATHCAP is what synergizes with her passive what can you get early on Karma? DEATHCAP what do you not need on Karma? Survivability (always shield self never die) | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:27 Tooplark wrote: why does anyone ever use mantraQ in lane when you just walk up to brand or w/e and mantraE in his face what synergizes with Karma's passive? DEATHCAP is what synergizes with her passive what can you get early on Karma? DEATHCAP what do you not need on Karma? Survivability (always shield self never die) well with dcap you dont have any hp to make use of her passive anyways. Also then you definitely have to mantra Q for not dieing after 1-3 shots which you obv dont like to do too. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
It's like building rod of ages on Annie; it's makes her a more versatile duelist (stronger 1v1 unless the deathcap lets you instagib the other guy) with a lesser teamfight presence. On September 08 2011 08:35 clickrush wrote: well with dcap you dont have any hp to make use of her passive anyways. Also then you definitely have to mantra Q for not dieing after 1-3 shots which you obv dont like to do too. Not really. Unless you are aiming to run past their bruisers to Q their back row, you aren't really going to get focused. The whole point of karma is to make YOUR bruiser so ridiculously strong that they can't even bother to attack you or else that Irelia on your team is just going to rape their support and both carries. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:35 clickrush wrote: well with dcap you dont have any hp to make use of her passive anyways. Also then you definitely have to mantra Q for not dieing after 1-3 shots which you obv dont like to do too. hp to make use of her passive? you have a SHIELD to make use of her passive and your passive gives you more AP too | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:27 Tooplark wrote: why does anyone ever use mantraQ in lane when you just walk up to brand or w/e and mantraE in his face what synergizes with Karma's passive? DEATHCAP is what synergizes with her passive what can you get early on Karma? DEATHCAP what do you not need on Karma? Survivability (always shield self never die) Unfortunately, it's not this simple. Some lanes simply won't let you go deathcap first, and you'll benefit hugely from the Catalyst, especially in harass-heavy lanes against AD carries that happen to end up in mid. I find that Karma is up the face of enemies much more than other AP carries, so I like the scaling HP and AP that cata->roa allows. Also, the on-level bonus that Catalyst gives is huge for in-lane sustain. I personally think Cata is broken as hell right now, and I'm getting it on every single one of my AP mids over stacking DRings, except maybe Brand. Edit: No one says you have to make catalyst into RoA as fast as you possibly can. It's fairly trivial to open with a catalyst for sustain and go Sorcs -> Deathcap if you want to play it like that. Fairly common on other ap carries, Anivia being the biggest one I can think of. Eventually finish the cata into a BVeil. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:59 HyperionDreamer wrote: Essentially... You only really spam mantra on your E's if you want to push the lane real hard, the rest of the time you save it for healing with Q and surprise RERQ bursts on your opponent. I really really want them to buff Karma so I can abuse her in solo queue. I would pick her every game but people keep thinking I'm picking support even though I always explicitly say that I'm going AP carry.... Edit: I think roa -> zhonya would be a good route to work on, since I've kind of gotten over my 3x DRing -> deathcap build phase. I used to swear by it, but it leaves you much squishier in lane and teamfights, and as karma you're probably going to be right in the line of fire. Don't really think you should be using mantra on her Q at all. Mantra the E for both survivability and damage. It's ok if you take some damage beforehand, because as long as you aren't wasting mantra on Q, you're a huge threat and can win most 1v1 fights vs heroes that are good at more "straight up" 1v1ing and not karma's weird style. This applies to other small skirmishes. If you use mantra to heal in lane, you're lowering the threat of approaching you drastically, making yourself vulnerable. It's actually much scarier to approach a 40% health karma with 2 mantra stacks than a 60% health karma with 1 mantra stack. REQ(W)RE can kill most champs pre-6 pretty damn well. And if you're low health, your AP is higher, but your shield does the work of keeping you alive. Her midgame really is kinda awkward, because the lack of ulti + poorly leveled speed/slow skill, and such really starts to drag you down around 6-13, where you still only have 1 level 6 skill, a second minor nuke (2 levels behind) and not much else, while other AP casters have a full rotation ready with only 1 of the 3 skills left low level (example: Annie RQW vs mantra EQ - this is your shitty area of the game.) while you have only 2 spells and 1 of them is low level. If you can make it to late game, you give so much shield and damage with 2x level 6 mantrashield (on your tank or initiator rather than yourself) + Q and your leash of zoom is ridiculous. Mantra Q is really only a "after team fight" thing if you have mantra left for it, but make sure you let enough mantra charge up by the time another fight is going to happen. Rushing deathcap seems like the way to go, maybe spellvamp afterwards for the "eventual" survivability. Keeps you threatening during the midgame teamfights, too. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
If you have to build a ton of survivability (RoA and hourglass), your teamcomp isn't really ideal for Karma. Your bruiser is basically so strong that as long as you can deal with THEIR frontline via having the likes of Janna or Alistar and a good damage dealer a la kogmaw or vayne, you are set. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 08 2011 08:50 Juicyfruit wrote: I feel that if you wait until after RoA to build your deathcap, the game would have dragged on long enough that the other team does enough damage to make RoA's health bonus fairly moot. If you have to build a ton of survivability (RoA and hourglass), your teamcomp isn't really ideal for Karma. Your bruiser is basically so strong that as long as you can deal with THEIR frontline via having the likes of Janna or Alistar and a good damage dealer a la kogmaw or vayne, you are basically set. Like I said, you don't necessarily have to wait until after RoA, you can get the catalyst for the increased HP and mana pools in lane and then get your NLR -> Deathcap. I have a crazy attachment to lane sustain no matter what way you slice it though, which is why I prefer the Catalyst. | ||
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tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
On September 08 2011 07:37 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Didnt think this deserved a new thread but I'm calling out whoever started the CauthonLuck rumor about the CauthonLuck on LoL not being the one from sc2 beta. Everyone keeps saying that the CauthonLuck in LoL who's around 1950 elo isn't the same from from SC2 beta. I want to know who started this because you're completely wrong. I was in ROOT during the beta and played with CatZ qxc CauthonLuck some of our management staff etc.. I've had him on my friends list ever since then and the same CauthonLuck that I've had friended since playing with him on beta is the ~1950 player who appears on streams randomly. Yet everytime I see reference to him here it's full of posts saying that it's not him.... I'm confused about this and whoever started this rumor you're a baddie. I knew it!! Who the hell calls themselves CauthonLuck if not that same guy? It is the most random name ever and a very unusual namesteal choice at the same time. I remember hearing him quit SC2 for some MOBA game last year as well. | ||
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