EPT[WuKong Patch] General Discussion - Page 77
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
Also Nasus more viable for jungling? this shall be interesting  | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On August 08 2011 06:34 spinesheath wrote: This whole "AP needs levels more than AD" is nonsense. If you send an AD to a duo lane, he will have less damage output/influence in fights than a solo lane AD because he is squishier and this has to play much safer (and also has weaker skills, duh). If you send an AP bottom, his damage output will be lower than the solo lane counterpart, too. Whether the weaker AD or the weaker AP will hurt your team more is very game specific. However, if you can zone the enemy AD @ bottom out of lasthitting range for a while, then that is usually WELL worth a slightly underfarmed AP because the AP can rely on his base damages more than the AD. What the AD loses is significantly less than what the AP loses in the vast majority of cases. Brand+Taric is the exception, not the rule, of non AD+Support lanes. The standard cheese lanes involve blitz, alistar, singed, poppy, and champs of that nature, all of which rely on gibbing someone to get not get zoned. On August 08 2011 06:56 arnath wrote: Shrug the problem with Nasus is not that he can't deal damage, it's that he's infinitely kiteable (moreso than any hero in the game I think). Even Udyr at least has bear form for a spammable mini-ghost. 'cause Q's "brilliant" design means once he hits something it loses half their hp. On August 08 2011 10:45 NeoIllusions wrote: He's pretty squishy on base stats but I guess most LS do build him tanky. Atmog is too gud on him. I guess I could see his Q numbers reduced a bit. But I still think good LS are art to watch. How is that a design flaw? How is his lunging in/retreating any different than a champion using a projectile instead? If anything, LS lunging in is more risky than a project if he somehow gets caught in a CC before he can W out. You're thinking of a scenario where he's still weak and doing something like diving into a tower. In reality if he gets even a little fed he can rape your teammate, survive your damage, and just W to safety. He has too much free mobility for how tanky + damaging he gets, not to mention the fact that he uses energy and has free lifesteal so he has infinite sustain. Renekton has a fraction of Lee Sin's range. You can Q from 975 range, decide if you want to Q again at your leisure, then W to safety at 750 range. Meanwhile, your Q does the extra damage just by pressing the button again and sets up your double E automatically. Renekton needs E for damage, since they nerfed Q and W and pushed damage to E. He can go about 500 range per E and requires hitting something on Slice to even be able to cast Dice. If he's using minions to have a range equal to Lee Sin, then he's losing half his damage on E and he has no way to escape. If he's using E to attack you, then E back out, he still has only ~55% the total range of Lee Sin. You also don't have the luxury of flying to a teammate or ward (meaning the only way you get a meaningful escape with E is doubling through minions, aka the long way to run away). The only advantage Renekton has with E vs Lee Sin's QW is that he can go over some narrow ledges/trees without assistance. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On August 08 2011 21:03 Craton wrote: What the AD loses is significantly less than what the AP loses in the vast majority of cases. Brand+Taric is the exception, not the rule, of non AD+Support lanes. The standard cheese lanes involve blitz, alistar, singed, poppy, and champs of that nature, all of which rely on gibbing someone to get not get zoned. Proof that the AD loses less than the AP? The AD has to stay in range for a much longer duration than the AP to deal damage, and 2 levels can easily make the difference between getting instagibbed and barely surviving when someone tries to retaliate. I don't care about popular double burst lanes, I only care about a GOOD lane to counter ranged AD + support. Double melee has its problems against ranged/support. Get a ranged burst champ and everything changes. Brand, Annie, Anivia, Orianna, Swain all seem viable to me at first glance. Pair them up with Alistar, Taric, Sion, Pantheon, TF, Maokai. I can't say for sure which of those lanes actually are viable, which work best against which ranged/support combination etc. Anyways, back to the "AD loses less than AP": So, maybe that's true... but you ignore that the AP/stun lane might shut the enemy bot lane down way harder than the enemy mid will hurt your mid. Mid is hard to lose for a ranged champ. Taric+Brand zones most ranged/support bottom lanes with ease. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
Anyways, back to the "AD loses less than AP": So, maybe that's true... but you ignore that the AP/stun lane might shut the enemy bot lane down way harder than the enemy mid will hurt your mid. Mid is hard to lose for a ranged champ. Taric+Brand zones most ranged/support bottom lanes with ease. That's not a solid argument. Any lane "might" shut down another lane. If the AD lane just wards side bush and farms in front of tower they're just going to have a gay old time farming and having their jungle gank. Something like Soraka Caitlyn would just free farm all day without a care. I think it's possible that some particularly strong ap/support could beat some weaker ad/supports, but I think that's about it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Plus ap casters are nearly always better in 3v3 and 2v3 and 2v2 situations than ad carries simply because they have abilities that hit more than one target, while ad carries are forced to deal most of their damage through auto attacks to a single target over time. | ||
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0123456789
United States3216 Posts
On August 08 2011 22:51 Two_DoWn wrote: The difference can easily be made up in with farm. A dual stun with an ap WILL hurt harder than an ad/support. This means that smart players will be able to zone and control the lane against ad/support. Plus you can put characters like corki and trist mid, never have to worry about them dying to ganks, let them farm while your bot lane with an ap shuts down their ad carry's farm, and is always on hand for dragon fights where they are the most effective anyway. Plus ap casters are nearly always better in 3v3 and 2v3 and 2v2 situations than ad carries simply because they have abilities that hit more than one target, while ad carries are forced to deal most of their damage through auto attacks to a single target over time. Ummmmmm ad + support shits on ap + whatever mostly. If you put trist bot with a support like taric, alistar, or leona you'll get at least equal burst bot until lvl 6, but be stronger in the early lvls=win lane. Stun + cait is also really hard to be agressive on with 600+ range and double stuns. You guys think way too much in the lines of shitty defensive support + shitty ad ranged carry bot laner = win for double burst. Yes, but if the ad is paired up with agressive supports and stuns, then overall ad will win. Don't tell me ap's can control lane effectively earlier on vs a ranged carry. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On August 08 2011 19:50 Nikon wrote: Jungle Nasus, charge Q super slowly. Sounds like a good plan? I was a pro jungle Nasus back at 1400 you can still get decent Q farm and that's when I didn't even build wriggles. His E means his jungle isn't all that bad and I assume they are buffing his Q cd at early levels to increase his speed which is the main weakness he has. Of course it doesn't make much sense to jungle him since the point of picking a champion that is good lategame is kind of null when you are making the less money than everyone but the support. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Certainly, a freefarming Nasus in lane would be better but there's really no guarantee you can get the freefarm since most laners can at least make it uncomfortable for Nasus, and even if Nasus freefarms the opposition gets farmed too. Nasus needs to be extremely farmed when you're placing the burden of carrying on him (i.e. him taking a solo lane), but he's perfectly capable of playing a very powerful secondary role between withering the enemy DPS, shredding everyone's armor, and his ult which both makes him tanky AND makes him a 15-minute baroner. | ||
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0123456789
United States3216 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Stuff isn't "right" just because it's what most skilled people do. And it's quite likely (99.99999%) that there isn't ONE right way to play this game, but rather a complex system of counters. If you crush people in solo Q with a certain bot lane setup, the only thing you prove is that this setup counters the current standard (or that you are way better than most other players). LoL is far from a state where you could expect solid counter picking and people developing and adapting game plans during the ban/pick phase. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
But it's also slow to adapt in general because it's rare for the lane to be played optimally since it requires coordination of two separate minds. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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