Now, this isn't totally relevant to the metagame at high levels, because people roam in groups of 5 and everyone just tries to CC the healers and focus down the carries and it's a big mess of AOE and a bunchabullshit, BUT
one of the funnest parts of any game ever is theorycrafting (and testing) which champs could beat the other in a completely maxed item scenario, 1v1, no summoner spells, FINAL DESTINATION.
Ruken initially started this research off a couple months ago and determined that
This was back when siphon strike could be dodged. Jax gave him the most trouble due to being able to dodge siphon, but if repeated today it's almost certain that Jax wouldn't even get close. Wither is just too strong against all these champs. Olaf's passive is great in a real game but doesn't kick in fast enough in a 1v1. Of course, many many different builds were tested just to see. Stack armor, stack armor pen, stack lifesteal, get as much damage as possible, balance your stats, grab a warmog and thornmail for ultimate EHP, etc etc etc.
Today Ruken and I did another test on my claim that XinZhao would wreck Nasus. After farming for 40 minutes to get about 15k gold, we started our builds and the results were pretty interesting.
For any other champ, Bloodrazor didn't seem to have enough of an effect on Nasus to matter. But my theory was that with enough AS xin would be able to keep Q permanently off cooldown and keep Nasus in the air long enough to wittle him down. Xin wouldn't need lifesteal because of imba passive.
The best build for Xin seemed to be Randuins, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Bloodrazor, Malady, Sword of the Divine. Xin's got a total of about 130 AD from this build but nearly 2.5 AS, and over 400 armor. Randuins and Xin's ult are activated at the beginning of the fight to give him survivability, as well as SotD. Q is immediately proc'd to get a fast pop-up, and W is pressed right after to refresh cooldowns. Q is activated as soon as it's off cooldown again and so is W.
Nasus found success with Infinity Edge, Bloodrazor, Triforce, Warmog, Frozen Heart, and Randuins. Banshee was deemed worthless as it could be popped with Xin's E immediately. Popping Nasus's ult will get a Triforce proc, followed by spirit fire and siphon for another proc, as well as wither to try to counteract xin's imba AS (wither absolutely destroys any other champ... Xin's AS even drops to about 0.4 at the last tick, which is disgusting). Both champs triple-potting gives Nasus the advantage, strangely enough. Nasus also won when Xin got Warmogs instead of SotD, and the champs literally broke even (as in, they both killed each other on the last hit) no less than 6 times in our tests with various builds. CDR and minimizing the opponents attack speeds are crucial. Lifesteal is huge on Nasus.
Strangely enough, just as Xin can destroy Nasus or at least hold equal with him, and Nasus clobbers Jax, I hypothesize that Jax would rape Xin, as would Warwick.
Yi hasn't been taken into any considerations, nor has Pirate (do oranges remove wither? that could be huge), but Yi isn't considered a threat, *LOL*.
SO, yeah. I'm down to do tests again another day (requires multiple people farming multiple lanes for about half an hour then meeting at baron and constantly fighting each other and swapping out builds and whatnot), which champs do you guys think are the best late-game carries?
Obviously ranged v melee isn't fair because if the ranged can keep the gap wide, they can kite to win, whereas if the melee can close it (Xin, Yi, Warwick) the ranged doesn't stand a chance. But I'd like to see which ranged could beat which ranged as well (my money's on Kog and Trist).
Hmm, so how farmed is nasus getting before these fights? I've seen Siphon Strikes hitting with 1300+ bonus damage, I doubt Xin would stand a chance against that. Have you tried either against a full AP Sion? Zhonya's 4 Archangels and Lich Bane makes him a tough threat, possibly subbing one AA for a fully maxed mejais will give more AP but at that point he's healing himself for ~800k every lich bane proc while his ult is active and dealing a shit ton of damage during his burst.
Kog vs Trist would be an interesting battle, and I'm fairly certain anyone agai
Nasus had 260 Siphon Strike damage iirc. I mean sure you could give him 6000 Siphon Strike damage and he'd win outright but where's the fun in that? Also Ruken seems to think there's an upper limit to SS damage around 1400 anyways.
Also with Xin having 400 armor and SS being physical damage, it was severely reduced either way.
Haven't tried AP Sion yet, didn't even think of that, but it'd definitely be a good fight. Ofc, Xin would be stacking MR and AS to keep Sion popped up so who knows about that one. Not sure how Nasus would fair against an AP champ either
Interesting. I also did this theorycrafting with a friend.
Are we considering summoner spells? Because wouldn't Nasus get raped if you simply cleansed his wither?
I tested Sion vs Yi with a friend (I didn't use a single ability except my shield but that's worthless anyway, Yi used youmuu's and his ult). That vid shows me with Thornmail and him without though. Also, I farmed a ridiculous amount of minions so I have a lot more health than I should have.
Once Yi got thornmail it was a closer match, but once I used my ultimate with Sion, gaining 125% life steal, it wasn't a match at all.
Personally I think if we're allowed to cleanse CC with summoner spells, Sion could destroy Nasus.
If wither is such a big deal, wouldn't Summoner Cleanse / Quicksilver Sash make sense? Or are you assuming both champions take Cleanse / Exhaust and they cancel each other out?
We did no summoners because like cleanse destroys Nasus but does nothing when facing Yi or Xin, so it's not exactly fair. Only items were used. Merc treads and quiksilver are *nice* to get rid of wither but that is subtracting an entire item slot worth something else that might be more important (100 armor, 50% attack speed, Bloodrazor, etc)
Yeah as far as I'm concerned, regarding your video, Yi is going to get wrecked by everyone. All they need is to prioritize armor or dodge, and he's worthless. He's got no can't-miss skill, and while he's got a fuckton of attack speed and damage, so does everyone else in these scenarios. Meditate gets him killed, alpha strike is lol, so he's already down two abilities whereas everyone else uses all their abilities pretty well.
I'm positive citrus fruits gets rid of the movement slow on Nasus' wither but I'm not 100% sure it gets rid of the attack speed debuff but I think that it does. And GP has a 50% reduction to your lifesteal. GP > Nasus you heard it here first.
Definitely want to try GP and Nasus then. But I'm also pretty positive Jax will beat GP and possibly Xin. Also even after I discounted Yi, I've had a game as Yi where I was super farmed and I let the game go on so I could keep getting kills and their GP eventually got superfarmed as well and we both had essentially the best items you could buy and I still beat him \m/ So I've got Yi > GP too
I think a properly itemized Yi could probably stand a chance:
LW + Black Clever + Ghostblade + Sword of the Divine (makes dodge useless) + Inf. Edge + Bloodrazor would probably be the best damage combo though he might want some other stats like survivability or lifesteal.
I tested Sion vs Yi with a friend (I didn't use a single ability except my shield but that's worthless anyway, Yi used youmuu's and his ult). That vid shows me with Thornmail and him without though. Also, I farmed a ridiculous amount of minions so I have a lot more health than I should have.
Once Yi got thornmail it was a closer match, but once I used my ultimate with Sion, gaining 125% life steal, it wasn't a match at all.
Personally I think if we're allowed to cleanse CC with summoner spells, Sion could destroy Nasus.
Try zerk greaves 4 warmogs atmas on sion for shits and giggles.
On November 10 2010 12:51 gtrsrs wrote: Definitely want to try GP and Nasus then. But I'm also pretty positive Jax will beat GP and possibly Xin. Also even after I discounted Yi, I've had a game as Yi where I was super farmed and I let the game go on so I could keep getting kills and their GP eventually got superfarmed as well and we both had essentially the best items you could buy and I still beat him \m/ So I've got Yi > GP too
Jax beats everything that isn't sion or nasus, mostly because the multiple warmogs+atmas has the potential to instagib. (and by potential I mean unless every autoattack gets dodged, which is not even the case on siphon strike. good times.)
EDIT 3: not sure how warmogs atmas nasus vs warmogs atmas sion would fare, nasus has higher dmg output and wither but sion's lifesteal is enough to completely fill his hp with each hit.
multiple warmogs gets completely outclassed by a single-slot item tho, BloodRazor. in all our testing today we found that adding a warmogs neither helped nor hurt either of us. so many %-based skills make warmogs irrelevant. 4warmog atma especially would be insta death to attackspeed + BR.
The best build for Xin seemed to be Randuins, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Bloodrazor, Malady, Sword of the Divine. Xin's got a total of about 130 AD from this build but nearly 2.5 AS, and over 400 armor. Randuins and Xin's ult are activated at the beginning of the fight to give him survivability, as well as SotD. Q is immediately proc'd to get a fast pop-up, and W is pressed right after to refresh cooldowns. Q is activated as soon as it's off cooldown again and so is W.
Nasus found success with Infinity Edge, Bloodrazor, Triforce, Warmog, Frozen Heart, and Randuins. Banshee was deemed worthless as it could be popped with Xin's E immediately. Popping Nasus's ult will get a Triforce proc, followed by spirit fire and siphon for another proc, as well as wither to try to counteract xin's imba AS (wither absolutely destroys any other champ... Xin's AS even drops to about 0.4 at the last tick, which is disgusting). Both champs triple-potting gives Nasus the advantage, strangely enough. Nasus also won when Xin got Warmogs instead of SotD, and the champs literally broke even (as in, they both killed each other on the last hit) no less than 6 times in our tests with various builds. CDR and minimizing the opponents attack speeds are crucial. Lifesteal is huge on Nasus.
What about giving Xin LW instead of SotD? Sacrifice AS and some magic damage for 40%ArPen (Nasus has 270 Armor with the build you wrote).
Where the fuck is like, Twitch/Corki/Tristana because I'm 90% sure I would rape if I was allowed full farm on them vs your full-farm Nasus by just straight kiting from across the map with bloodrazors/IE/frozen mallet.
Xin actually needs CDR instead. His power comes from his supernuky ultimate and controling the fight with knockups and AoE slows. Attackspeed however only improves that marginally for it´s price.
5hitcombo, did you read it all? he allready stated that this was not tested with ranged carries since they would easily be able to kite kill a physical dps. He also said he would like to test the ranged carries aswell.
On November 10 2010 21:09 Unentschieden wrote: Xin actually needs CDR instead. His power comes from his supernuky ultimate and controling the fight with knockups and AoE slows. Attackspeed however only improves that marginally for it´s price.
But the dicussion is only about 1v1s, not groupfights, as useless as it may be! Plus, his CDR comes from his attackspeed.
Haha testing this was fun. I think allowing summoner spells would favor Nasus in almost every case. Both players exhaust each other, both cleanse, Nasus withers and we're back to square one. If they take banshee's or anything like that it doesn't help either since Randuin's will pop it.
And actually I forgot to mention we did test Master Yi. He just got so curbstomped that I forgot lol. Also Guitar, I'm realizing taking thirster/whisper over thirster/starks would have been better for Nasus vs Xin. Still a draw I'm sure, but stark's/spirit fire is only removing 60 armor when I could be taking Xin down to 120 total armor. I'm assuming Nasus would still have enough lifesteal without stark's. Maybe another thing to test next time we do this.
The best build for Xin seemed to be Randuins, Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Bloodrazor, Malady, Sword of the Divine. Xin's got a total of about 130 AD from this build but nearly 2.5 AS, and over 400 armor. Randuins and Xin's ult are activated at the beginning of the fight to give him survivability, as well as SotD. Q is immediately proc'd to get a fast pop-up, and W is pressed right after to refresh cooldowns. Q is activated as soon as it's off cooldown again and so is W.
Nasus found success with Infinity Edge, Bloodrazor, Triforce, Warmog, Frozen Heart, and Randuins. Banshee was deemed worthless as it could be popped with Xin's E immediately. Popping Nasus's ult will get a Triforce proc, followed by spirit fire and siphon for another proc, as well as wither to try to counteract xin's imba AS (wither absolutely destroys any other champ... Xin's AS even drops to about 0.4 at the last tick, which is disgusting). Both champs triple-potting gives Nasus the advantage, strangely enough. Nasus also won when Xin got Warmogs instead of SotD, and the champs literally broke even (as in, they both killed each other on the last hit) no less than 6 times in our tests with various builds. CDR and minimizing the opponents attack speeds are crucial. Lifesteal is huge on Nasus.
What about giving Xin LW instead of SotD? Sacrifice AS and some magic damage for 40%ArPen (Nasus has 270 Armor with the build you wrote).
LW gets Nasus Armor to 162.
but in my build I had about 130 AD so I didn't really care about his armor. Sotd gives more AS so i went with that. Same with malady
On November 10 2010 14:51 DiracMonopole wrote: Doesnt end-game Trynd obliterate anyone?
Surprisingly, no. Not 1v1. Trynd is just the most relevant in lategame teamfights (sort of) because all 5 of them can't focus him down. These 1v1 fights will last much longer than six seconds, unlike a teamfight.
Excluding gay infinity damage crap on Veigar/Nasus/Sion, wouldn't something like IE, BT, BT, BT, PD, QSS, Ghost/Cleanse Yi just be able to out-damage and out-lifesteal anyone + avoid kiting using Highlander?
On November 11 2010 04:21 Mogwai wrote: Excluding gay infinity damage crap on Veigar/Nasus/Sion, wouldn't something like IE, BT, BT, BT, PD, QSS, Ghost/Cleanse Yi just be able to out-damage and out-lifesteal anyone + avoid kiting using Highlander?
We tried that build if not something close vs Nasus. Yi's ult doesn't last long enough and once it's done Nasus uses Randuin's active and Yi has to use QSS or die (the active was lasting absurdly long with close to 400 armor on Nasus.) After that wither and it was over Nasus' burst from his siphon every 2 seconds is too much to lifesteal back fast enough.
On November 11 2010 04:21 Mogwai wrote: Excluding gay infinity damage crap on Veigar/Nasus/Sion, wouldn't something like IE, BT, BT, BT, PD, QSS, Ghost/Cleanse Yi just be able to out-damage and out-lifesteal anyone + avoid kiting using Highlander?
Yeah, see you think that but yi just gets demolished. Assuming EVERYONE has equal item builds, it comes down to skillsets. Xin's got imba pop-up every 2 seconds, Nasus has at least 2 withers and imba damage from SS, warwick has lifesteal + lifesteal + a stun + lifesteal, jax dodges like crazy and stuns, olaf has true damage, pirate's got a nuke and a cleanse, etc etc. Yi just really doesn't stand up to anyone at all. My Xin build with 400 armor takes 80% reduced damage, and i have 2.2 AS. I don't even need to do damage, its just the fact that i don't take any, as well as keeping yi popped, that lets me win
On November 11 2010 06:18 Mogwai wrote: what? that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. let's just make it no items too while we're at it so mundo can rape everyone's face off.
They are testing melee vs melee and ranged vs ranged because it's fairly obvious that most ranged champs will steamroll melee champs 1v1.
On November 11 2010 06:18 Mogwai wrote: what? that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. let's just make it no items too while we're at it so mundo can rape everyone's face off.
it makes sense to only do melee v melee and ranged v ranged. someone like pirate has no way to close the gap between himself and tristana, and literally can't win that matchup. on the other hand xin is gonna audacious charge up to ashe and then SHE literally has no chance at winning the matchup. doing a melee v ranged wouldn't work because the matchup wouldn't be decided by which champ was better, but where the champs started. start them across the screen from each other (like we do with the melee v melee, they run at each other to initiate) and the ranged will never lose. start them right next to each other and the ranged will never win. not that hard to understand tbqh
actually i would put my money on tristana to win versus every melee too because she could just blow them away and then kite them and jump away when they try to close the gap again. but again it's irrelevant because if i was running around as pirate and saw an equally farmed tristana with a mallet i wouldn't engage at all whereas if i saw a warwick i'd be all up on his nuts
On November 11 2010 06:10 myopia wrote: These matches assume no kiting
these matches also assume ur in 900 elo where everyone solo pushes. aka useless
These matches also assume that this is in fact a VIDEO GAME, not a CAREER CHOICE and in lieu of this, it is not only allowed but recommended that you HAVE FUN sometimes
On November 12 2010 07:05 Shikyo wrote: What is this garbage? Tryndamere with Quicksilver destroys anyone. PD, LW and 3 Bloodthirsters.
Lol, trynd would get bursted down so unbelievably fast with no armor. Seriously 2 hits from nasus to bring him to undying rage, randuin to slow the attack speed, trynd has to pop quicksilver, wither gg. Enjoy that movespeed bonus from Phantom Dancer tho
Like I'm not sure if you understand the part where my Xin Zhao had 400+ armor and was still dying in ~12 seconds. Trynd would drop in < 2. Trynd wouldn't stand against perma-pop XinZhao either. More than willing to go into practice game right now to prove it
On November 11 2010 06:10 myopia wrote: These matches assume no kiting
these matches also assume ur in 900 elo where everyone solo pushes. aka useless
These matches also assume that this is in fact a VIDEO GAME, not a CAREER CHOICE and in lieu of this, it is not only allowed but recommended that you HAVE FUN sometimes
did i say something wrong? i just stated theres never going to be a chance to use this knowledge. thought u were the chillest person on TL. why so srs, gtrsrs?
On November 11 2010 06:10 myopia wrote: These matches assume no kiting
these matches also assume ur in 900 elo where everyone solo pushes. aka useless
These matches also assume that this is in fact a VIDEO GAME, not a CAREER CHOICE and in lieu of this, it is not only allowed but recommended that you HAVE FUN sometimes
did i say something wrong? i just stated theres never going to be a chance to use this knowledge. thought u were the chillest person on TL. why so srs, gtrsrs?
True story, before I knew he was 'guitarasaurus' in game, I thought his name was gtr-serious.
On November 11 2010 06:10 myopia wrote: These matches assume no kiting
these matches also assume ur in 900 elo where everyone solo pushes. aka useless
These matches also assume that this is in fact a VIDEO GAME, not a CAREER CHOICE and in lieu of this, it is not only allowed but recommended that you HAVE FUN sometimes
did i say something wrong? i just stated theres never going to be a chance to use this knowledge. thought u were the chillest person on TL. why so srs, gtrsrs?
True story, before I knew he was 'guitarasaurus' in game, I thought his name was gtr-serious.
it's actually guitars are us like toys r us derp
does poppy's shit do magic damage? i don't know what her Q cooldown is like but i bet she'd be a decent contender
Q is magic, has a 4 sec cd, and does a percentage of their hp as damage, R is the best damage boost in the game, and poppy's passive is prob the best in the game.
On November 12 2010 09:12 Fishcakes wrote: Q is magic, has a 4 sec cd, and does a percentage of their hp as damage, R is the best damage boost in the game, and poppy's passive is prob the best in the game.
yeah i bet she'd be strong. dunno if she'd be the strongest but p strong cause stacking Mres isn't as strong or versatile as stacking armor. her passive is like -10% damage?
On November 12 2010 09:12 Fishcakes wrote: Q is magic, has a 4 sec cd, and does a percentage of their hp as damage, R is the best damage boost in the game, and poppy's passive is prob the best in the game.
yeah i bet she'd be strong. dunno if she'd be the strongest but p strong cause stacking Mres isn't as strong or versatile as stacking armor. her passive is like -10% damage?
No, it reduces any attack that does more than 10% of her hp by 50%.
On November 12 2010 09:12 Fishcakes wrote: Q is magic, has a 4 sec cd, and does a percentage of their hp as damage, R is the best damage boost in the game, and poppy's passive is prob the best in the game.
yeah i bet she'd be strong. dunno if she'd be the strongest but p strong cause stacking Mres isn't as strong or versatile as stacking armor. her passive is like -10% damage?
No, it reduces any attack that does more than 10% of her hp by 50%.
oh yeah that's way strong still think my 100 ad xinzhao would beat it tho
What about Udyr? Tiger stance actually rapes really hard if you max it, though I dont know if udyr can compete with olaf / nasus, but I'd imagine he could beat xin
On November 13 2010 19:30 gtrsrs wrote: yeah i'd think that udyr would be really strong with bear/turtle/tiger but then again wit's end exists so i don't think he'd be stance-dancing much.
Wits end is affected by MR, so it wouldnt be that bad
On November 13 2010 19:30 gtrsrs wrote: yeah i'd think that udyr would be really strong with bear/turtle/tiger but then again wit's end exists so i don't think he'd be stance-dancing much.
Wits end is affected by MR, so it wouldnt be that bad
Does MR reduce the amount of mana burned by wits end? 'cause that's really what you have to worry bout. With a xin that has wits end your mana pool is gonna drop super fast, not to mention all the stance dancing you'll be doing. pretty soon you'll have no mana. Udyr's passive dodge won't do much either if you just grab a SotD on xin.
On November 11 2010 06:18 Mogwai wrote: what? that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. let's just make it no items too while we're at it so mundo can rape everyone's face off.
They are testing melee vs melee and ranged vs ranged because it's fairly obvious that most ranged champs will steamroll melee champs 1v1.
On November 13 2010 19:30 gtrsrs wrote: yeah i'd think that udyr would be really strong with bear/turtle/tiger but then again wit's end exists so i don't think he'd be stance-dancing much.
Wits end is affected by MR, so it wouldnt be that bad
Does MR reduce the amount of mana burned by wits end? 'cause that's really what you have to worry bout. With a xin that has wits end your mana pool is gonna drop super fast, not to mention all the stance dancing you'll be doing. pretty soon you'll have no mana. Udyr's passive dodge won't do much either if you just grab a SotD on xin.
Since the magic damage it does depends on the mana burn Id assume yes
^ Magic damage depends on the mana burn means that it first burns mana, then calculates the magic damage, then calculates it, so you kind of contradicted yourself
The mana burn is not reduced my MR, having 100 MR will not make you only lose 21 mana each hit, you will lose 42 mana per hit and take 42 damage, which is mitigated by MR so would be 21 damage in this case. The amount of mana lost is always 42, unless of course you have less mana then that.
On November 11 2010 06:10 myopia wrote: These matches assume no kiting
these matches also assume ur in 900 elo where everyone solo pushes. aka useless
These matches also assume that this is in fact a VIDEO GAME, not a CAREER CHOICE and in lieu of this, it is not only allowed but recommended that you HAVE FUN sometimes
did i say something wrong? i just stated theres never going to be a chance to use this knowledge. thought u were the chillest person on TL. why so srs, gtrsrs?
EPT
he allready stated that this was not tested with ranged carries since they would easily be able to kite kill a physical dps. He also said he would like to test the ranged carries aswell.
