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On May 10 2011 03:50 Southlight wrote:
Actually it's because, as they said, Mana Burn is either really strong or absolutely worthless, and in 99% of cases it was just absolutely worthless lol. They tried to rework it to be more useful while still being anti-mage, but unfortunately its cost is still too high to justify buying it. They should really remove from Bow to Dagger and make like a 1200 gold item that does that, while making it buildable into a bigger item.
They've said that too, but they really don't want mana burn in the game.
Once every 20 fights you feel awesome and he feels like absolute garbage. (from Phreak's post here). It's the second part that Riot wants to get rid of. There's no counterplay (read how Phreak compares it to a silence).
I know there are more examples (Riot's said a couple times they didn't like mana burn for this reason) but I don't want to look through the redtracker and find them.
It's also true that in most cases, especially on melee champs, Wit's End's mana burn was worthless and this change makes it straight-up stronger in those cases but I am pretty much positive this change is to get the mana burn out of the game more than anything.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
I'm fine if Riot removes mana burn from the game because it's "antifun". But the new replacement with increasing MRes just doesn't seem so great. Few champions want Wits End anyways as there are a lot of other AS items they could get. Irelia and Teemo come to mind as people who currently want it. Irelia with more MRes sounds scary. Teemo doesn't need stacked MRes because as soon as he gets focused he melts anyway.
This post from a Red about Shen concerns me though.
(Link to Red Post)It's mostly just a base vs scaling issue. Shen building just resists (Sunfire, FoN, Randuin's, GA, Merc Treads) and not ever dying plus dealing really strong DPS is just too good. 5-Warmog's Shen will not be as durable (no resists) as the above build, but will deal much more damage than that build. I can perceive Atmogs Shen to be a possible build that people may try. We don't have anything against champions being tanky and dealing damage if they build both for tankiness and for damage. However, with Shen scaling off of base health, it just meant that the mere act of leveling up gave him tons of damage, arguably too much. I don't think Shen will deal as much damage as Corki without REALLY trying for it, but he will get a better impact out of buying +health, and less impact from just sitting in a minion wave for a while.
Since when was Shen a dps or a carry? I'll assume stacking Warmogs was made as an example and is not a legit build he's recommending. I'm not sure I'll like the detailed Patch Note release with numbers.
Also, the Atma-Warmogs Shen mention suggests Riot sees Shen as tanky-dps instead of a tank...
I'm also not happy Tenacity will reduce Silence and Blinds. These forms of CC are already inferior to stuns and I liked how because they weren't as good you were guaranteed to get full duration on them as a trade. Now they're just inferior stuns imo.
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On May 10 2011 03:46 Southlight wrote:
Noc is strong because he has a crazy CC and a near-global ult, along with a ridiculously safe, quick, and easy jungle. He is, in short, TF #2. And in conjunction with TF means there is a very quick double-gank almost anywhere on the map. Yet they decided to nerf his... spell? Wat.
Karth is strong because of his lane control in good hands and his global presence, except they feel the need to nerf Karth's ult and not the real global gay heroes (Shen/TF/Noc). Makes sense.
Jarvan is strong because he has two jumps, innate tankiness, a damage increase, two AoEs, a retarded passive, and two forms of CC (both AoE!) that cannot be QSS'd. Wait, that means he has 5 OP skills, all in one!
he actually has 3 forms of AoE CC, lol
<_<
>_>
>_<
At least that's how I see it (knockup, slow, arena).
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On May 10 2011 03:56 Mogwai wrote:
At least that's how I see it (knockup, slow, arena).
*sigh* I forgot about the snare.
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Doubt shen's new scaling off of bonus health is going to help him a lot. He still has a global tp which will always be useful.
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On May 10 2011 03:55 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 03:50 Southlight wrote:
Actually it's because, as they said, Mana Burn is either really strong or absolutely worthless, and in 99% of cases it was just absolutely worthless lol. They tried to rework it to be more useful while still being anti-mage, but unfortunately its cost is still too high to justify buying it. They should really remove from Bow to Dagger and make like a 1200 gold item that does that, while making it buildable into a bigger item. They've said that too, but they really don't want mana burn in the game. Once every 20 fights you feel awesome and he feels like absolute garbage. (from Phreak's post here). It's the second part that Riot wants to get rid of. There's no counterplay (read how Phreak compares it to a silence). I know there are more examples (Riot's said a couple times they didn't like mana burn for this reason) but I don't want to look through the redtracker and find them. It's also true that in most cases, especially on melee champs, Wit's End's mana burn was worthless and this change makes it straight-up stronger in those cases but I am pretty much positive this change is to get the mana burn out of the game more than anything.
Alright, if Riot doesn't want mana burn in the game that's fine. But the fact is still that they now made Wit's End into an even more niche and situational item than it was before.
It's set of stats are a very odd combination that no champion will really ever want to get for it's cost and the use of an item slot.
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On May 10 2011 03:55 MoonBear wrote:
(...)
Since when was Shen a dps or a carry? (...)
Don't forget that Heimer is a support!
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Where are the newest patch notes with all these changes you guys are talking about?
Edit: Lame Fuck the unnecessary and silly random nerf to Karthus.
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On May 10 2011 04:29 Slaughter wrote:
Where are the newest patch notes with all these changes you guys are talking about?
Edit: Lame Fuck the unnecessary and silly random nerf to Karthus.
Karthus has been a giant problem in high level play because of fucking imbalanced 25 second death timer at the end of the game. The nerfs are not random at all, they're very pointed at him being a pretty abusive asshole.
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On May 10 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 04:29 Slaughter wrote:
Where are the newest patch notes with all these changes you guys are talking about?
Edit: Lame Fuck the unnecessary and silly random nerf to Karthus. Karthus has been a giant problem in high level play because of fucking imbalanced 25 second death timer at the end of the game. The nerfs are not random at all, they're very pointed at him being a pretty abusive asshole.
So thats why it always felt karthus was never dead
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Man, so much complaining going on here.
Shen: Sure, Riot could just nerf his ult. However, that's just an easy way to balance a champion; homogenization leads to boring gameplay. Global ults are not inherently OP- Pantheon has one and he sucks. OTOH, Shen IS overpowered, which warrants a nerf- and Riot chose to reduce his damage. Those saying Shen's damage is fine are missing the point- Shen as a champion was too strong, and the damage nerf will help bring him more in line to the power level of other champions (e.g. it'll now be harder to pick up kills after Shen ults to an ally because Shen will contribute less damage).
Wit's End: 30 MRes, 42 magic damage per hit, stacking MRes, attack speed. Just look for which champions does this stat mix makes sense- you're not gonna get in on Jarman because he prefers to stack physical damage and Arpen, but maybe you'll want Wit's End on Irelia, Teemo, Mundo, Phoenix Udyr, etc.
Noct: If anyone seriously thinks his ganks won't be weaker if the damage of his skills is lowered... Then you're wrong.
Yeah I know, you would've done things differently if the changes were up to you. However, I think the announced changes are very positive, broadly speaking.
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not going to get baited into the troll.
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Riot doesn't want to mess with the global ults (as in, change them to work like Nocturne, which I believe is their eventual intent) until they develop a way to see skill ranges on the minimap, since they think the way you see the range of Nocturne's ult is awkward (and I agree with them on that). They've said as much a few times on their forums, though I can't think of any recent posts I could find to reference explicitly right now.
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So when would one want to buy the new tenacity items instead of mercs?
The way I see boots is: you need the MS, and you get to choose a stat that they help you max out. Why would you want to get that small boost, and the use up another item slot to get a small amount of stats and an inferior amount of tenacity, if you really need the tenacity? Could it be a midgame sort of thing, so that the cost of the new items would justify going for something like berserker's + bf + cloack&dagger, for example?
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On May 10 2011 05:23 0123456789 wrote:
I have nothing intelligent to say so I'll just be witty and call the other guy a troll
There, I fixed it for you. Now, if you have any actual, constructive arguments for why you disagree, feel free to discuss them here. That's what this thread is for.
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On May 10 2011 05:49 SQWKZ wrote:
So when would one want to buy the new tenacity items instead of mercs?
The way I see boots is: you need the MS, and you get to choose a stat that they help you max out. Why would you want to get that small boost, and the use up another item slot to get a small amount of stats and an inferior amount of tenacity, if you really need the tenacity? Could it be a midgame sort of thing, so that the cost of the new items would justify going for something like berserker's + bf + cloack&dagger, for example?
zerks are actually a great example as from what i recall they're one of the most cost efficient boots (you pay basically nothing (or maybe even gain money) for upgrading the boots to boots2 speed while paying for just aspd, a far call from sorc boots if you use haunting guise as the base cost of mpen).
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On May 10 2011 05:49 SQWKZ wrote:
So when would one want to buy the new tenacity items instead of mercs?
The way I see boots is: you need the MS, and you get to choose a stat that they help you max out. Why would you want to get that small boost, and the use up another item slot to get a small amount of stats and an inferior amount of tenacity, if you really need the tenacity? Could it be a midgame sort of thing, so that the cost of the new items would justify going for something like berserker's + bf + cloack&dagger, for example?
janna/sona/lux cdr boots + upgrade philo stone for some tenacity
^_^
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Yeah I'm pretty sure that Zerks + Cloak and Dagger is better than Mercs + (aspd item of your choice) for similar cost. Whether it's better overall I'm not sure, because clearly C&D doesn't upgrade to anything else (whereas if you grabbed a Recurve + Mercs instead you're weaker at the moment but you can upgrade the Recurve later) and it's hard to price the 10 tenacity difference.
Cloak and Dagger is reaonably efficient just for the aspd and crit on it based on the preview stats though. 1450 gold for 20 aspd (worth ~525) and 20 crit (worth ~920). But I think it falls into the category of midgame items that are supposed to be efficient to make up for not building into anything bigger, and the champs where you would get it do legitimately have item slot problems.
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United States47024 Posts
The big problem I see is that most of the guys that get Mercs aren't getting Mercs just for the CC reduction--they're getting it because it's really just the best boots option for them--they want beefiness midgame, not to squeeze out a bit of extra attackspeed/CDR. You're not going to go zerks on someone like Jarvan or Warwick and then also get C&D, because midgame you're not trying to get cost-effective attack speed--you're trying to get hard to kill. And on the flip side, lots of casters/carries that opt for Sorcs/Zerks do so because they just don't really want Mercs--if Ashe gets stunned for long enough that Mercs will be significant, she's going to die inside that stun either way. Zerks + C&D is better than Mercs + Recurve, but who actually builds Mercs + Recurve right away? You generally get Mercs->more beefy items, or Zerks->you're too squishy to care about CC reduction.
I can think of a few champs that would like the outside-Mercs CC reduction, but even some of those have some other issues that make these items awkward. For example, Vlad loves CDR boots, and would like CC reduction from Spellblade, but he already gets Revolver/Visage, so getting another mid-tier item really starts to make him tight on slots, and delays his bigger items. Ryze would also like to be able to get Sorcs while getting CC reduction from another source, but none of the 3 CC reduction options are well itemized for him.
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EPT
