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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:28 Tooplark wrote: + Show Spoiler [FakeSteve strongest shen] + ![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/s63v4y.jpg) before the game: + Show Spoiler + omfg its fakesteve ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/cfPgi.gif) during the game: + Show Spoiler + i feel so gud being carried by fakesteve ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GgOhS.gif) after the game: + Show Spoiler + fakesteve #1 king ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dwSSf.gif) | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
Let's face it, Ryze is a champion played by players who want to feel good about themselves without actually requiring any skill or thinking. A good champion is a mix of several different factors. Let's go through them one at a time, using of course the es #1 champion, Mordekaiser, as an example, as well as his questionably sexual opposite, Ezreal. A champion should first of all have a slight scaling based on skill with the champion itself. For example, Mordekaiser's skills are relatively easy to use-point and click, no skillshot required, pretty much instant cast time. However, this means that Mordekaiser es also less damagey and has far shorter range than, say, Ezreal, whom relies on skillshots for damage. So we see a tradeoff: on one hand, easy to use, short-range, less damaging champions, vs. harder to use, longer-range, more damaging champions. Ryze is not only hilariously easy to use (in the sense that there isn't even a cone skillshot to use) but has incredibly long range and tons of damage. Okay, that's understandable. Maybe there's a tradeoff somewhere else. The second thing is a tradeoff between mobility and durability. Mordekaiser es fairly durable with his shield, but trades actual HP for it as well as being a slow piece of crap that slowly marches its way across the map to two shot the enemy team. This means of course that he gets kited really really easily. On the other hand, you have Ezreal, whom is really squishy, but has a blink and is pretty mobile. Ryze is more durable than mobile. Okay, that's fine, he's supposed to be in the middle of the fight with his short-range spells and melee attacks... oh, wait. The third thing is a use of tactics, both in the laning phase and in the teamfight phase. For Mordekaiser, the goal in laning phase varies rapidly-sometimes, you want to push the lane hard to take down an enemy tower, other times, you want to hold the lane at your tower for free farm and to deny the enemy. Because of Morde's massive early game AOE against creeps, it is possible to do both, but the situation changes. There are of course tradeoffs between choosing either of these options. Pushing the lane leaves you exposed for a gank, while keeping the lane at your tower allows the enemy to get hits on your tower as well as gives you the creep disadvantage when harassing. Similarly, Ezreal can play a harassment style aggressiveness (at the cost of missing CS and potentially being ganked) or he can play it safe and farm (at the cost of having his tower pushed). Ryze can harass aggressively with no penalty and farm with no penalty because of his spammability of skills and his long range, as well as his snare which keeps him safe from many types of ganks. Similarly, in teamfights, Mordekaiser's goal is to find the damage source and kill it, perhaps with a ghost on top. Ezreal's goal is to be in a safe place and shoot things from afar. Ryze's goal is... what, exactly? His job is to cast spells on anyone in range. Positioning doesn't matter, and neither does target-obviously squsihies would be a higher priority but due to most Ryze's getting a Void Staff as their only AP item damage is pretty consistent amongst both tanks and squishies. Finally, building items should also be a tradeoff. Damage should be a tradeoff with utility and durability. Mordekaiser can rush triforce/gunblade, but that makes him squishier. Ezreal can rush a banshees, but that makes him do no damage. Ryze can build tank items and increase his damage directly by large amounts. This is the exact same problem with vlad-namely, one set of items purely dominates any other set of items because they provide multiple benefits. This is different from tanky DPS whom can do damage without building damage items-instead, this is doing MORE damage by building items that aren't damage items. In addition, because the limit to someone with fast cooldowns is mana, allowing him to solve this problem while at the same time dealing more damage and being tanky is silly-he's getting a 3 for 1 deal. How do we fix Ryze, then, to keep him both as a "spell machine gun" as well as by not making him silly broken/OP? Simple: a) Boost his AP ratios and nerf his initial mana ratios a tad. b) Cut his Q range to 600, lower its damage and lower its cooldown. c) Increase E's magic resist reduction per bounce. d) Lower his snare duration at early levels e) Change Q to dealing damage based off current mana, but make it cost a larger amount of mana as a result. An example of a mechanism of this could be to change the utlimate from "15% spell vamp" to "each spell consumes 4/7/10% of current mana and deals that much in bonus damage." Change these things, and not only will playing against a Ryze not be a facepalm and boring as fuck, but playing as Ryze may actually require a semblance of skill. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:59 emucxg wrote: ryze CDR too OP, hit me with Q 3 times in 5 sec, WDF 5 sec? The standard Q W Q E Q should take only like 3 seconds with a shroud. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
a) I don't think AP ratios are the way to go with Ryze. He builds no AP, and that's right because it's what makes him unique. b) Probably agreed on the range, damage is ok tho. c) No idea, that skill needs a complete overhaul because it's more or less pointless atm. d) It's not more than every other champion, 1 second initial into 2 seconds at max level. I mean, is one second really that much? e) The dependency on current mana will make him super gimmicky, because you will have no idea what to balance him around. Imo the problem with Ryze lies not in the champion himself, but in the items. Due to the fact that flat mana is pretty much a useless stat on 95% of champions there are no really dedicated mana items in the game at all (save for tear). All mana items have mana as a secondary stat, while their primary is either health/MR (banshees) or CDR/armor (FH). Ryze's damage had to be balanced around those items since raw mana is EXTREMELY slot-inefficient (you have different tiers for one-stat items for every other stat, there is Giant's belt for HP, Negatron for MR, chain vest for Armor etc, but only a sapphire crystal for mana). Imo, that's the problem. While a regular caster always has the choice - itemize for pure AP (NLR, deathcap) or for mixed stats (Rylai's etc), Ryze doesn't have that choice - there isn't a pure mana item that is worth a slot. Therefore, the peaks of his damages have to be adjusted around hybrid items, unlike other casters that can itemize for pure AP. I mean, Frozen Heart which is core on him doesn't even give that much mana (250% of Sapphire crystal for 700% it's cost), same with Banshee's and the only damage item he might get is Tear which you can only have one of. Introduce a tier 2 mana item in the game, adjust his rates around it and suddenly you will have a balanced champion. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On April 20 2011 08:20 BluzMan wrote: Ryze's tradeoff, at least seemingly, is his reliance on items. Unlike other casters, he gets NOTHING from levels, his ultimate is the worst in the game and his base damages are trash. He, however, gains too much from items, because he gains so much damage and survivability at the same time. a) I don't think AP ratios are the way to go with Ryze. He builds no AP, and that's right because it's what makes him unique. b) Probably agreed on the range, damage is ok tho. c) No idea, that skill needs a complete overhaul because it's more or less pointless atm. d) It's not more than every other champion, 1 second initial into 2 seconds at max level. I mean, is one second really that much? e) The dependency on current mana will make him super gimmicky, because you will have no idea what to balance him around. Imo the problem with Ryze lies not in the champion himself, but in the items. Due to the fact that flat mana is pretty much a useless stat on 95% of champions there are no really dedicated mana items in the game at all (save for tear). All mana items have mana as a secondary stat, while their primary is either health/MR (banshees) or CDR/armor (FH). Ryze's damage had to be balanced around those items since raw mana is EXTREMELY slot-inefficient (you have different tiers for one-stat items for every other stat, there is Giant's belt for HP, Negatron for MR, chain vest for Armor etc, but only a sapphire crystal for mana). Imo, that's the problem. While a regular caster always has the choice - itemize for pure AP (NLR, deathcap) or for mixed stats (Rylai's etc), Ryze doesn't have that choice - there isn't a pure mana item that is worth a slot. Therefore, the peaks of his damages have to be adjusted around hybrid items, unlike other casters that can itemize for pure AP. I mean, Frozen Heart which is core on him doesn't even give that much mana (250% of Sapphire crystal for 700% it's cost), same with Banshee's and the only damage item he might get is Tear which you can only have one of. Introduce a tier 2 mana item in the game, adjust his rates around it and suddenly you will have a balanced champion. Huh? He's the only caster that gains spell dmg from levels. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
They need to scale back the mana ratios on Ryze's abilities, keeping in mind that he's basically getting free gold value out of every mana item he gets. Assuming an equivalent caster with a 1.0 and a 0.5 AP ratio nuke (instead of 10% and 5% mana ratios), BVeil gives you 37 AP of free gold value, FHeart gives you 50 AP of free gold value, etc. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
Ardor Nimbleness (dodge is sorta being phased out of the game, so this is more of a total rework imo) Teleport Mastery (compared with the other summoner spell masteries, this one is pretty bad) Fortify Mastery (likewise, though fortify isn't great as is) Ignite Mastery (barely seems useful) Brute Force Offense Mastery the offense one that gives you +4% attackspeed for 4 points the offense one that gives you +2% critchance for 3 points Perseverance (at the very least, some clarification) The final offense mastery (at the very least some clarification) My ranking of the summoner spell masteries in terms of how much they help the summoner spell: Clairvoyance Revive Ghost Rally Clarity Smite Cleanse/Heal/Flash Teleport Fortify Ignite | ||
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dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
On April 20 2011 08:20 BluzMan wrote: Ryze's tradeoff, at least seemingly, is his reliance on items. Unlike other casters, he gets NOTHING from levels, his ultimate is the worst in the game and his base damages are trash. He, however, gains too much from items, because he gains so much damage and survivability at the same time. a) I don't think AP ratios are the way to go with Ryze. He builds no AP, and that's right because it's what makes him unique. b) Probably agreed on the range, damage is ok tho. c) No idea, that skill needs a complete overhaul because it's more or less pointless atm. d) It's not more than every other champion, 1 second initial into 2 seconds at max level. I mean, is one second really that much? e) The dependency on current mana will make him super gimmicky, because you will have no idea what to balance him around. Imo the problem with Ryze lies not in the champion himself, but in the items. Due to the fact that flat mana is pretty much a useless stat on 95% of champions there are no really dedicated mana items in the game at all (save for tear). All mana items have mana as a secondary stat, while their primary is either health/MR (banshees) or CDR/armor (FH). Ryze's damage had to be balanced around those items since raw mana is EXTREMELY slot-inefficient (you have different tiers for one-stat items for every other stat, there is Giant's belt for HP, Negatron for MR, chain vest for Armor etc, but only a sapphire crystal for mana). Imo, that's the problem. While a regular caster always has the choice - itemize for pure AP (NLR, deathcap) or for mixed stats (Rylai's etc), Ryze doesn't have that choice - there isn't a pure mana item that is worth a slot. Therefore, the peaks of his damages have to be adjusted around hybrid items, unlike other casters that can itemize for pure AP. I mean, Frozen Heart which is core on him doesn't even give that much mana (250% of Sapphire crystal for 700% it's cost), same with Banshee's and the only damage item he might get is Tear which you can only have one of. Introduce a tier 2 mana item in the game, adjust his rates around it and suddenly you will have a balanced champion. Mana Crystal real expensive item. l0l | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On April 20 2011 08:05 Shikyo wrote: 5 sec? The standard Q W Q E Q should take only like 3 seconds with a shroud. lol, dont have the real data, but something like that, yeah | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
On April 20 2011 08:30 Woony wrote: I wonder if Riot will ever tweak around with masterys? Buffing offense tree would make sense and would be a nice buff to ad carrys without fucking up the whole game. i think offense tree is ok, after the mana regen nerfs | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
31 from runes and masteries + 20 from youmu + 45 from cleaver Yeah, who needs LW? | ||
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BloodNinja
United States2791 Posts
On April 20 2011 08:58 emucxg wrote: i think offense tree is ok, after the mana regen nerfs The offensive tree is easily the weakest mastery tree. Even the capstone mastery is terrible. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On April 20 2011 09:52 BloodNinja wrote: The offensive tree is easily the weakest mastery tree. Even the capstone mastery is terrible. havoc isn't bad relative to the typical value of a mastery point, just weaker than the other two 'ultimate' masteries. i usually run 15 or 16 offense if I'm going into that tree but 21 makes sense on some champs | ||
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BloodNinja
United States2791 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:34 UniversalSnip wrote: havoc isn't bad relative to the typical value of a mastery point, just weaker than the other two 'ultimate' masteries. offense tree is ok 5% on base damage isn't bad for a skill you have to take 20 points to get to? | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:36 BloodNinja wrote: 5% on base damage isn't bad for a skill you have to take 20 points to get to? no, it isn't bad. saying it takes 20 points isn't a legitimate way of costing it the masteries below it are ok, mostly not as good as util tree but util tree isn't optimal on everyone | ||
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BloodNinja
United States2791 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:37 UniversalSnip wrote: no, it isn't bad. saying it takes 20 points isn't a legitimate way of costing it the masteries below it are ok, mostly not as good as util tree but util tree isn't optimal on everyone How is the pre-req not part of the cost? That makes zero sense, its position in the tree massively affects its value. Not to mention, nearly every level of the offensive tree is overshadowed by its counterparts of the defensive and/or utility trees. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On April 20 2011 11:36 BloodNinja wrote: 5% on base damage isn't bad for a skill you have to take 20 points to get to? Did you know it affects smite? On April 20 2011 11:37 UniversalSnip wrote: no, it isn't bad. saying it takes 20 points isn't a legitimate way of costing it the masteries below it are ok, mostly not as good as util tree but util tree isn't optimal on everyone If every mastery is worth the same regardless of the position in the tree, it's pretty interesting that utility has 6% cdr for 3 points and offense has 3% cdr for 4 points. | ||
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