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arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
November 04 2010 18:27 GMT
#81
Just kind of a general question:

When people take a full utility/strength of spirit mastery build, why do you go 0/9/21 instead of 0/8/22 and grab Greed in Utility? Or is there some form of 0/9/21 that DOES grab Greed? I don't see what you could possibly be getting out of that 1 point in defense that's better than 1 gold/10 seconds.

I usually only go 0/9/21 when I want the dodge mastery.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 04 2010 18:33 GMT
#82
depending on the range of your character, defensive mastery is frequently really good for mitigating the creep aggro you take for harassing the opponent via burst.

Assuming 2 Utility Mastery based Summoner Spells though, I agree that on ranged casters, 0/8/22 with both improved flash and greed makes more sense than that 1 point in defensive mastery. I guess I've never really thought that one out, *thumbs up* for the question.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 18:39:17
November 04 2010 18:38 GMT
#83
Ah yeah, to clarify, I mean on a hero you'd take Ghost/Flash on (or two other spells that have an improved version in Utility).

I have a tendency to go full utility on nearly every hero because I find the offense tree really useless.
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 18:47:12
November 04 2010 18:42 GMT
#84
Well, I go 0/9/21 with greed and I don't get the flash mastery. It's only a 15s faster cd, or 13s faster cd with full 21. I don't think it is essential like improved ghost, in which u can be caught by the person who took the mastery and you didn't. You can say that sometimes that flash being up 13s earlier would save you, but so might more regen/ armor/less creep dmg/whatever, and defence actually benefits my aggressive early game.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 04 2010 18:47 GMT
#85
13 second faster CD on Flash is definitely better than 2 armor or 1 reduced damage from creeps on a ranged caster IMO.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
November 04 2010 18:49 GMT
#86
There is no reason you wouldn't get the Summoner Skill Mastery if you have a choice. Mogwai obviously reasoned it out.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
November 04 2010 19:04 GMT
#87
Yup, arnath makes a good point. It's just that both of them have very little impact on the game most of the time, which is why the "default" recommendation still goes 0/9/21. I think I can like remember 1 or 2 games where not getting that mastery has cost me, but the effect of 2 armor is definitely more subtle. It's something I wish I had paid more thought to.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 04 2010 19:11 GMT
#88
well, as far as a single point goes, greed outperforms most generic masteries really quickly. For instance, 1 point in Armor gives you 2 armor. Cloth armor is 18 armor for 300 gold which means that 2 armor = ~33 gold, which greed will make in 5.5 minutes, making the decision really easy. Of course it's trickier with something that can't be measured in terms of items like defensive mastery, but I think greed makes more sense than it in at least many situations.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
November 04 2010 19:28 GMT
#89
Oh, I was referring to improved flash haha. Greed is fantastic for a single point, I always feel pained when I don't get greed for whatever reason. A lot of noobs will argue greed won't buy you anything good, but I recall this 90g item that wins games.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11768 Posts
November 04 2010 19:34 GMT
#90
On November 05 2010 04:11 Mogwai wrote:
well, as far as a single point goes, greed outperforms most generic masteries really quickly. For instance, 1 point in Armor gives you 2 armor. Cloth armor is 18 armor for 300 gold which means that 2 armor = ~33 gold, which greed will make in 5.5 minutes, making the decision really easy. Of course it's trickier with something that can't be measured in terms of items like defensive mastery, but I think greed makes more sense than it in at least many situations.


You made me feel less guilty being greedy. Oh snap.

In comes Uta always getting Greed.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Seiuchi
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States931 Posts
November 04 2010 19:47 GMT
#91
On November 05 2010 02:06 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2010 01:55 Tooplark wrote:
Leblanc has good enough base damage and CC that she can get fed in lane against us 1400 ELO baddies, making up for her farm problem
I think straight burst, no AP, level 6 would be a another important comparison. That's part of what makes Annie strong.

I think the comparison works out worse for her at lower levels, because she has 4 damage spells, while Annie, Kass, and Veigar only have 3. And Annie and Kass max their non-damage spell last.

At level 6, zero AP:

LeBlanc: 230 (Rank 3 Sigil) + 345 (Mimiced Sigil) + 90 (Rank 1 Distortion) + 90 (Rank 1 Chains) = 755

Annie: 170 (Rank 3 Disintegrate) + 145 (Rank 2 Incinerate) + 200 (Rank 1 Tibbers) + 160 (2 Tibbers autoattacks) + 50-100 (Tibbers aura, couldn't find the numbers anywhere) = 725-775

Anivia: 180 (Rank 2 Flash Frost) + 230 (Rank 3 Frostbite) + 240 (3 ticks of Rank 1 Glacial Storm) = 650

Kassadin: 180 (Rank 3 Null Sphere) + 120 (Rank 2 Force Pulse) + 60 (Rank 1 Riftwalk) = 360
(Note Kassadin's output gets way better if there's a non-negligible chase distance, because Riftwalk + Force Pulse drastically improves his ability to chase compared to Annie or Leblanc).

Veigar (assuming 30 AP from Baleful Strike): 188 (Rank 3 Baleful Strike) + 150 (Rank 1 Dark Matter) + 280 (Rank 1 Primordial Burst) = 618


The problem with that comparison is noticing how much of that comes from Q+R for LeBlanc - you honestly don't even need to hit the other abilities most of the time, since cooldown for R will be done in 20 seconds and your next Q+R hit = dead enemy. It's going to be hotfixed anyways, but that's the part of the comparison that isn't felt by the numbers, the ease of use and CD.
Kingske
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium252 Posts
November 04 2010 20:01 GMT
#92
5hit is just full of bravery
Bravery! - Livestream.com/frogtails
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
November 04 2010 20:34 GMT
#93
On November 05 2010 05:01 Kingske wrote:
5hit is just full of bravery


But nobody is as brave as caller.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 04 2010 20:35 GMT
#94
personally I find Brees to be incredibly brave.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-04 22:12:50
November 04 2010 20:37 GMT
#95
On November 05 2010 04:47 Seiuchi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2010 02:06 TheYango wrote:
On November 05 2010 01:55 Tooplark wrote:
Leblanc has good enough base damage and CC that she can get fed in lane against us 1400 ELO baddies, making up for her farm problem
I think straight burst, no AP, level 6 would be a another important comparison. That's part of what makes Annie strong.

I think the comparison works out worse for her at lower levels, because she has 4 damage spells, while Annie, Kass, and Veigar only have 3. And Annie and Kass max their non-damage spell last.

At level 6, zero AP:

LeBlanc: 230 (Rank 3 Sigil) + 345 (Mimiced Sigil) + 90 (Rank 1 Distortion) + 90 (Rank 1 Chains) = 755

Annie: 170 (Rank 3 Disintegrate) + 145 (Rank 2 Incinerate) + 200 (Rank 1 Tibbers) + 160 (2 Tibbers autoattacks) + 50-100 (Tibbers aura, couldn't find the numbers anywhere) = 725-775

Anivia: 180 (Rank 2 Flash Frost) + 230 (Rank 3 Frostbite) + 240 (3 ticks of Rank 1 Glacial Storm) = 650

Kassadin: 180 (Rank 3 Null Sphere) + 120 (Rank 2 Force Pulse) + 60 (Rank 1 Riftwalk) = 360
(Note Kassadin's output gets way better if there's a non-negligible chase distance, because Riftwalk + Force Pulse drastically improves his ability to chase compared to Annie or Leblanc).

Veigar (assuming 30 AP from Baleful Strike): 188 (Rank 3 Baleful Strike) + 150 (Rank 1 Dark Matter) + 280 (Rank 1 Primordial Burst) = 618


The problem with that comparison is noticing how much of that comes from Q+R for LeBlanc - you honestly don't even need to hit the other abilities most of the time, since cooldown for R will be done in 20 seconds and your next Q+R hit = dead enemy. It's going to be hotfixed anyways, but that's the part of the comparison that isn't felt by the numbers, the ease of use and CD.

Oh I wasn't trying to make any implications out of the comparison. I just did it because someone felt like it should be done.

EDIT: On top of which, I just realized I looked at the wrong rank of her ult. Mimicked Sigil only does 276 damage, not 345, so her total amounts to 686.
Moderator
Goshawk.
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United Kingdom5338 Posts
November 04 2010 21:16 GMT
#96
I can't wait for this bs leblanc to get nerfed. -_-
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Korea (South)3851 Posts
November 04 2010 21:19 GMT
#97
--- Nuked ---
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
November 04 2010 21:20 GMT
#98
yea leblanc scares the shit out of me. i finally laned against her for the first time as trist in a troll game. i was just there building my tiamats. and she just decides oh im actually going to hit you know instead of letting you freefarm. needless to say 2 seconds later i died. the rest of the game i just jumped away at the slightest move forward.
Lunek
Profile Joined October 2010
Poland164 Posts
November 04 2010 21:47 GMT
#99
This is stunning.

24 hours since forum open, 14 champion guides posted, + bravery guide. I can't imagine what will happen in next week.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
November 04 2010 22:11 GMT
#100
wow the nerf to leblanc was too much imo

The LeBlanc hotfix should be our very shortly. There might be some tooltip discrepancies until you relog. Like I mentioned in the previous thread, we wanted to solve two primary issues: the strength of Q-R, especially at level 6, and her mana efficiency.

For Q-R the following changes:
Reduced the initial damage on Sigil of Silence to 70/110/150/190/230 from 80/125/170/215/260.
Reduced the cast range on Sigil of Silence to 700 from 750.
Increased the cooldown of Mimic to 40 seconds from 30 seconds at all ranks.
Reduced the damage amplification on Mimic to 10/25/40% from 20/30/40%. (The tooltip was incorrectly stating 20/35/50%).

To address her mana efficiency we made the following changes:
Increased the mana cost on Sigil of Silence to 70/75/80/85/90 from 60/65/70/75/80.
Increased the mana cost on Distortion to 80/90/100/110/120 from 60/70/80/90/100.
Increased the mana cost on Ethereal Chains to 80 from 70 at all ranks.
Reduced her mana per level to 50 from 56.

We made two minor changes in addition to the ones noted above. We reduced her armor per level by 0.5 since melee need to feel she's appropriately squishy, and we reduced the damage of Distortion and Ethereal Chains by 5 at all ranks to preserve Q's position as the highest damage output ability and not adjust skill choices.

We will be carefully monitoring the impact of these changes.


she's gonna have mana problems now so she can't as easily threaten burst, but burst got hit hard anyway. and if you mastery/rune/shop for solving mana problems, CD on R is increased anyway...
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
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