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United States47024 Posts
Wow, that's like 100% different from the way jiji builds him.
Masteries are the same, but other than that, runes and items are super-different.
From what I remember:
Runes: MPen marks, mp5/lvl seals, AP/lvl glyphs, 2xAP + 1xMPen quints
Items: Bead+3hppot + 3manapot->Cata->Sorc Boots->DCap->situational stuff (most often Void/Hourglass/Abyssal in some order)
Summoners: Flash/Ignite
Also,
Judging by the above, you should be able to see my perspective on Zilean. He's one of the best support champions in the game, and can single handedly win your team the game if played well. He is not an AP carry. He should not be solo'ing top (this is to you, Elementz). He doesn't need farm, he doesn't need kills, he doesn't even need any items to be effective. That being said...
I thought the prevailing high-level opinion was that Zilean fills the solo lane AP carry role? At least, that's how I saw him picked/discussed on Loco/Jiji/whoever's stream...
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i honestly have not seen zilean in ranked yet. D:
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On February 25 2011 18:11 HeavOnEarth wrote:![[image loading]](http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5039/corki91.png) went 5-0 in 3mins. was lololz
Good to see THAsupreme not trolling fiddle for once.
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On February 25 2011 20:43 HazMat wrote:Good to see THAsupreme not trolling fiddle for once.
thasupreme has been playing fiddle since the dawn of time
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I feel that having one person roam besides jungle is gonna be the new fotm metagame (if thats the right word).
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
LoL doens't have enuff farm-independent heroes and doesn't have enuff really good 1v2 (Razor, Necrolyte).
Oh and yeah, LoL doesn't have the monkey courier! It's like instrumental for the 3 solo lane metagame because you can never ever afford to leave unless you die when you return quickly with town portal.
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On February 25 2011 19:58 TheYango wrote:Wow, that's like 100% different from the way jiji builds him. Masteries are the same, but other than that, runes and items are super-different. From what I remember: Runes: MPen marks, mp5/lvl seals, AP/lvl glyphs, 2xAP + 1xMPen quints Items: Bead+3hppot + 3manapot->Cata->Sorc Boots->DCap->situational stuff (most often Void/Hourglass/Abyssal in some order) Summoners: Flash/Ignite Also, Show nested quote +Judging by the above, you should be able to see my perspective on Zilean. He's one of the best support champions in the game, and can single handedly win your team the game if played well. He is not an AP carry. He should not be solo'ing top (this is to you, Elementz). He doesn't need farm, he doesn't need kills, he doesn't even need any items to be effective. That being said...
I thought the prevailing high-level opinion was that Zilean fills the solo lane AP carry role? At least, that's how I saw him picked/discussed on Loco/Jiji/whoever's stream...
I believe he can fit the sidelane support role. He can zone people hard with bombs, and his utility is still there in teamfights. I don't know if he should be giving up all of the farm to his partner, though.
He gets enough mileage from a solo lane for it to be justifiable also. Strong bombs really have an impact on fights, and Chrono Shift has a great AP ratio, if I remeber correctly. I don't know how good his matchups at the higher levels of play are, but he can definitely hold his own in the lower leagues.
As a sidenote, Jiji's zil is the only one I've ever caught on stream.
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Seeing how pretty much everyone wants to have a solo lane right now, this is the only logical conclusion.
Zilean does not compare to other AP carries at all in terms of DPS. Here's how Time Bomb + Rewind compares to Transfusion:
Time Bomb+Rewind deals 3*330 damage per 20 seconds, plus 3*0.9 per 20 seconds per 1 AP.
49.5 + 0.135*AP DPSI got confused about Zileans cooldowns.
Transfusion deals 250 per 3 seconds and 0.6 per 3 seconds per 1 AP.
83.3 + 0.2*AP DPS
But at the same time, Vlad also deals damage with 3 (ok usually just 2) other spells. That's easily enough to cover the AoE Time Bomb has, especially considering that those other 3 spells are all AoE.
I feel that this Zilean solo lane thing is just another of these troll things that some players can do simply because they outclass the rest. On the other hand, Zilean is a really strong laner and he might shut down one of the enemy's solos, but he better shuts him down really hard or else the cost (one less solo for a better scaling champ) is quite high.
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On February 25 2011 21:56 spinesheath wrote:
Seeing how pretty much everyone wants to have a solo lane right now, this is the only logical conclusion.
Zilean does not compare to other AP carries at all in terms of DPS. Here's how Time Bomb + Rewind compares to Transfusion:
Time Bomb+Rewind deals 3*330 damage per 20 seconds, plus 3*0.9 per 20 seconds per 1 AP.
49.5 + 0.135*AP DPS
Transfusion deals 250 per 3 seconds and 0.6 per 3 seconds per 1 AP.
83.3 + 0.2*AP DPS
But at the same time, Vlad also deals damage with 3 (ok usually just 2) other spells. That's easily enough to cover the AoE Time Bomb has, especially considering that those other 3 spells are all AoE.
I feel that this Zilean solo lane thing is just another of these troll things that some players can do simply because they outclass the rest. On the other hand, Zilean is a really strong laner and he might shut down one of the enemy's solos, but he better shuts him down really hard or else the cost (one less solo for a better scaling champ) is quite high.
Zilean really isn't an AP carry :/ He is just an aggressive support with a nuke. His early levels are good for harassing, so if you let Zil solo you do it in order to cripple enemy solo, not to have powerful lategame soloer
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Oh and I'll make a wild prediction that Magma chamber is going to allow 2 junglers on each side. Either that or it's like 3 Twisted Treelines in one map with jungle and lane being essentially the same thing.
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On February 25 2011 22:08 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 21:56 spinesheath wrote:
Seeing how pretty much everyone wants to have a solo lane right now, this is the only logical conclusion.
Zilean does not compare to other AP carries at all in terms of DPS. Here's how Time Bomb + Rewind compares to Transfusion:
Time Bomb+Rewind deals 3*330 damage per 20 seconds, plus 3*0.9 per 20 seconds per 1 AP.
49.5 + 0.135*AP DPS
Transfusion deals 250 per 3 seconds and 0.6 per 3 seconds per 1 AP.
83.3 + 0.2*AP DPS
But at the same time, Vlad also deals damage with 3 (ok usually just 2) other spells. That's easily enough to cover the AoE Time Bomb has, especially considering that those other 3 spells are all AoE.
I feel that this Zilean solo lane thing is just another of these troll things that some players can do simply because they outclass the rest. On the other hand, Zilean is a really strong laner and he might shut down one of the enemy's solos, but he better shuts him down really hard or else the cost (one less solo for a better scaling champ) is quite high. Zilean really isn't an AP carry :/ He is just an aggressive support with a nuke. His early levels are good for harassing, so if you let Zil solo you do it in order to cripple enemy solo, not to have powerful lategame soloer
I was talking about this:
On February 25 2011 19:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +Judging by the above, you should be able to see my perspective on Zilean. He's one of the best support champions in the game, and can single handedly win your team the game if played well. He is not an AP carry. He should not be solo'ing top (this is to you, Elementz). He doesn't need farm, he doesn't need kills, he doesn't even need any items to be effective. That being said...
I thought the prevailing high-level opinion was that Zilean fills the solo lane AP carry role? At least, that's how I saw him picked/discussed on Loco/Jiji/whoever's stream...
Should just have quoted it I guess. But I'm lazy.
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timebomb is obviously burst dmg not sustained. how is this not obvious to you
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On February 25 2011 21:56 spinesheath wrote:
Seeing how pretty much everyone wants to have a solo lane right now, this is the only logical conclusion.
Zilean does not compare to other AP carries at all in terms of DPS. Here's how Time Bomb + Rewind compares to Transfusion:
Time Bomb+Rewind deals 3*330 damage per 20 seconds, plus 3*0.9 per 20 seconds per 1 AP.
49.5 + 0.135*AP DPS
Transfusion deals 250 per 3 seconds and 0.6 per 3 seconds per 1 AP.
83.3 + 0.2*AP DPS
But at the same time, Vlad also deals damage with 3 (ok usually just 2) other spells. That's easily enough to cover the AoE Time Bomb has, especially considering that those other 3 spells are all AoE.
I feel that this Zilean solo lane thing is just another of these troll things that some players can do simply because they outclass the rest. On the other hand, Zilean is a really strong laner and he might shut down one of the enemy's solos, but he better shuts him down really hard or else the cost (one less solo for a better scaling champ) is quite high.
where in the world did you get Time Bomb + rewind = 3*330 damage per 20 seconds? I mean, even if you qwq (and let's say that it takes 0.5 seconds to cast the qw) the time left on your q for it to reset it back down to a fresh cooldown for another qwq combo is only 10 seconds. Thus, you cast 2 q's over the course of 10.5 seconds. The damage for each of these qs is 330 damage, 330*2 = 660 /10.5 seconds = 63 DPS with a scaling of 2*0.9 per 1 AP = 0.17 AP DPS. Not as outstanding as Vlad's with no cdr, but still comparable (and high base damage for an aoe spell).
The thing about zilean is that he, like other heroes that have flat cdr reducers, benefits more from cdr than traditional casters. In the same vlad example, vlad's DPS would increase proportionally with his cdr (139 + .333 AP DPS). However, zilean with 40% cdr would have 6 second cd on his bomb and 3.6 seconds on his rewind. Assuming that zilean does the same combo with the qwq and wait for bomb to explode, he would have a similar proportioned increase (about 103 dps). However, since all he has to wait for is his rewind cd to cast another q (and cause the second q to burst and set a third), the total wait time would be around 4.3 seconds (if you give the zilean 0.7 seconds to cast a qwq). 990 / 4.3 = 230 dps and 0.63 AP DPS. Of course, if you wait for a 4th q, then the DPS falls down to about 167 DPS, and so on so forth (because the initial instantaneous qwq gave the zilean burst) but nobody sits around comboing each other nonstop.
Zilean's superior range of his q (700 over vlad's 600) allows him to dominate some lanes that vlad might have more trouble with. Zilean shits on casters with inferior range (annie for example) because they have nothing to close the gap and he has time warp to kite and chronoshift should he need it. His burst is both easy to apply with safety and comparable to some of the hardest hitters like vlad.
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or, what heavOnEarth just said. the burst is insane if you consider a qwq (like if you consider the time of application only, say 0.7 seconds, in that time he has ensured that said target gets 660 damage, 330 up front and 330 more in 4 seconds. if you consider that, then its 942 damage per second l0l
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2011 21:56 spinesheath wrote:
Time Bomb+Rewind deals 3*330 damage per 20 seconds, plus 3*0.9 per 20 seconds per 1 AP.
49.5 + 0.135*AP DPS
Time Bomb+Rewind is 2 bombs immediately plus either 2 per 10 seconds (maximum damage) or 1 per 6 seconds (rewinding every CD for ult/E). Don't know how you got 3 bombs in 20 seconds.
Plus, Time Bomb is AoE damage.
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Sigh...
I still suck dick with all castors.
Just tried kass, went 0-3, team surrendered at 22 min
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Whoops, ok I messed up with the Rewind cooldown here. That changes a ton. Forget about the previous post.
So if we simply assume Time Bomb has Rewind's cooldown, then we end up with
55 + 0.15*AP DPS, plus a 330 + 0.9AP upfront.
Still does not compare to Vlad's Q. And as I mentioned, the AoE is nice and all, but Vlad has a ton of other spells that together result in some nice burst damage and R increases the damage taken.
On February 25 2011 22:31 HeavOnEarth wrote:
timebomb is obviously burst dmg not sustained. how is this not obvious to you
Burst does not carry very well. I was talking about the AP carry issue. You need sustained DPS to take down tanky stuff, and that's why the traditional "carry" champs are all autoattackers.
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On February 25 2011 23:26 Abenson wrote:
Sigh...
I still suck dick with all castors.
Just tried kass, went 0-3, team surrendered at 22 min
Kass is a pretty unique character, sucking with him doesn't mean you can't play caster. I'm also awful with Kass but pretty good with, say, Malzahar.
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On February 26 2011 00:02 Jaksiel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 23:26 Abenson wrote:
Sigh...
I still suck dick with all castors.
Just tried kass, went 0-3, team surrendered at 22 min Kass is a pretty unique character, sucking with him doesn't mean you can't play caster. I'm also awful with Kass but pretty good with, say, Malzahar.
Kassadin's kind of strange in that he doesn't have to die, but to unload his massive burst (force pulse), he has to put himself at risk. His burst is 2 spells, but he can deliver them repeatedly due to riftwalk. He's not like the other casters. Interestingly enough, I'm a pretty ok Kassadin, but suck dick with Annie. Gofigure :3
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I've been playing Euro over the lsat 2 weeks and it's been fine. Chat goes down a lot, and there were a couple of points when it wasn't working but overall it's been fine for both ranked and normal games. The chat ingame always works.
Are supports really that important? Maybe because I only have soraka and taric right now, just bought zil, but I always feel like the support is the least important guy there, except in jungle fights with janna, and chasing situations where you catch them out of position. Like all the supports are super good at chasing down in a rout.
The only times I enjoy playing a support is when I get SOME farm with taric so I get some tank items so I can do more than aurabot/stun every 10s, or in lane, which is fun with all supports.
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EPT
