EPTEdit:
Like, I had teleport. We had the 5v4 on drag, yet somehow they drag first (lol, with Nunu even) and we don't even try to abuse that, because bottom/mid is all OMGWTFWEGONNADIE and yet half their team was parked at top for 90% of the game.
General Discussion/Off-topic - Page 19
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Edit: Like, I had teleport. We had the 5v4 on drag, yet somehow they drag first (lol, with Nunu even) and we don't even try to abuse that, because bottom/mid is all OMGWTFWEGONNADIE and yet half their team was parked at top for 90% of the game. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Nid I can kinda understand, she doesn't bring crap to a early game team fight, but Panth? pfft. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Edit: AutomobileV can attest (he's NuclearBomb4Peace or something like that on TL) I was raging mad about how Ashe would give up a lot of free, easy kills because rather than be opportunistic with ECA it's being kept for defensive purposes. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
I mean, I can understand being cautious of baits, yeesh. I'd rather lose every so often because of overaggression than losing 5 in a row because no one wants to go past the river. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Line up for your Ashe (group up and push down together) and let her shoot straight down the lane arrows, instead of cross map. Granted if you're playing Ashe, you should be willing to risk those kind of ulti but resorting to simply defensive arrows is just painful. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
A game a few weeks ago there was a Malzahar dicking around alone, or at the very least only with two others because one was mid and the other was top (we saw him going top), pushing bottom tower. Like, the second bottom tower. Ashe is standing at bottom tower with his entire team. Never mind that half the opposing team wasn't even there, we had 5 people there against a Malzahar with no Cleanse, why am I having to tell the Ashe ECA THE MALZAHAR I mean come on. You have no idea how many kills we've let go because he just won't pull the trigger - we've failed ganks because the ECA doesn't come out except as a follow-up stun most of the time. Our win against Regi was with Tankassadin o_O Cata -> Sorc -> SS -> Cata -> double RoA -> Zhonya. I think you saw it streamed, though, because I remember you messaging Smash about his Galio? Where I initiated the entire freaking game, including that one hilarious instance at mid where I thought we wanted to fight so I rifted through their whole team... and then when Smash told me they weren't bunched up enough I rifted right into Corki to force them to clump onto me (for Galio). Edit: For the record it's not like he can't land the ECA, or whatnot, it just feels like he's afraid of that impending gank that'll countergank us, etc. Intimidation. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Getting multiple Rods would be nice if it didn't require ridiculous farm, not to mention the charge up time. But yes, in those few, few games where you can get 2-3 Rods and a Zhonya's, Rift/Pulsing is so glorious. And I didn't watch the game. I'm just a pro-stalker and check profiles when friends finish a game. XD [Edit: Play Trist or Corki instead then. Or even MF. Ashe is all about Arrows and the follow up coordination. Take away ECA, Ashe is Ez level carry.] | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
My Chain/Nega is usually an emergency reaction. Like holy shit Annie is three-shotting me this must stop. I don't like to do it because it delays/detracts from hitting carry-status early... unless it's like, Sona or something, in which case I'll gleefully do it to make them waste more time killing me. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
As for the other game, that game was fubar the whole game and I think we can probably blame that on me being too much of a flowchart WW when it comes to early game. When we went for their Lizard to start, I didn't know how to read their Nunu's CS (essentially he transitioned to our wraiths and then took just lizard + 1 creep so I read it as him doing his wraiths -> Small Golems) and failed miserably at expressing the urgency with which we needed to check dragon (he BPed, bought, then went STRAIGHT to dragon after the FB on you). We didn't have vision of first dragon in this game, and as far as I'm concerned, we lost the game right there at first dragon because we were legitimately too far behind to come back without something exceptional (which we didn't do either, perhaps we need to play ballsier when down, but it feels impossible when they seem to have maphack unlocked at 7 minutes in). I mean, I'm open to ideas, but basically I think we tried to go off the reservation with our jungle strategy, which turned it from a flowchart opening to a more intricate one, which they handled so much better that they were able to pull off both FB and fast dragon off of it. Plus our red buff on carry mid seemed only marginally productive rather than giving them the ability to dominate the lane like we had hoped. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
By contrast you see good teams just obliterate you on our side of the map early and often. TOO's walking through jungle to gank me from behind the tower at top as the creep pushes into the tower SUP. He barely survived (10 hp?) but yeah. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:27 NeoIllusions wrote: [Edit: Play Trist or Corki instead then. Or even MF. Ashe is all about Arrows and the follow up coordination. Take away ECA, Ashe is Ez level carry.] Or build her GB/B and she is all about spamming Volley and ECA whenever it's off cooldown. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
 Wasn't too bothered by it.I know you didn't want to play Panth in the other game (lol infinite ward Gragas) but, I dunno. I mean, it's just an example of how passive we play. Like, that game was more than the Panth, it was Nid losing to TOO and also Annie having Teleport which completely mindfucked us. But if you notice, we struggle to kill even a single tower against a lot of these teams, that's a little bit bizarre, and speaks to how unaggressive we are. Edit: Didn't we have a 180 CS Nidalee in one of those games? When everyone else had at most like 120? And it felt like Nidalee with that much farm could have come back and tried to jack people up... but content sitting in lane and pushing and losing game. I dunno, then you look at Shake against mediocre people jacking golem, running around pushing towers, stealing creep, and hunting weak people down and go "what happen?" lol | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:34 Southlight wrote: That last l0cust game was just hilarious and I pointed out the only thing we learned was that stealing red buff with a WW = bad idea because of his slow jungle Wasn't too bothered by it.I know you didn't want to play Panth in the other game (lol infinite ward Gragas) but, I dunno. I mean, it's just an example of how passive we play. Like, that game was more than the Panth, it was Nid losing to TOO and also Annie having Teleport which completely mindfucked us. But if you notice, we struggle to kill even a single tower against a lot of these teams, that's a little bit bizarre, and speaks to how unaggressive we are. Edit: Didn't we have a 180 CS Nidalee in one of those games? When everyone else had at most like 120? And it felt like Nidalee with that much farm could have come back and tried to jack people up... but content sitting in lane and pushing and losing game. I dunno, then you look at Shake against mediocre people jacking golem, running around pushing towers, stealing creep, and hunting weak people down and go "what happen?" lol l2group, trade towers even. I guess the biggest problem is you guys aren't playing the role that your champions are supposed to play? Hesitant DPS who can initiate but doesn't. An assassin content on farming and not ganking/mowing down towers despite having a 30% CS above everyone else. Captain Uta should deliver some motivation speeches imoimo. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:22 Southlight wrote: No, for instance. A game a few weeks ago there was a Malzahar dicking around alone, or at the very least only with two others because one was mid and the other was top (we saw him going top), pushing bottom tower. Like, the second bottom tower. Ashe is standing at bottom tower with his entire team. Never mind that half the opposing team wasn't even there, we had 5 people there against a Malzahar with no Cleanse, why am I having to tell the Ashe ECA THE MALZAHAR I mean come on. You have no idea how many kills we've let go because he just won't pull the trigger - we've failed ganks because the ECA doesn't come out except as a follow-up stun most of the time. Our win against Regi was with Tankassadin o_O Cata -> Sorc -> SS -> Cata -> double RoA -> Zhonya. I think you saw it streamed, though, because I remember you messaging Smash about his Galio? Where I initiated the entire freaking game, including that one hilarious instance at mid where I thought we wanted to fight so I rifted through their whole team... and then when Smash told me they weren't bunched up enough I rifted right into Corki to force them to clump onto me (for Galio). Edit: For the record it's not like he can't land the ECA, or whatnot, it just feels like he's afraid of that impending gank that'll countergank us, etc. Intimidation. there's a reason I don't play Galio, lol. Honestly though, when it comes to Galio + Amumu ults, I play super super super conservatively. Having a fail ult = game over and I pretty much never play them so I don't take any long shots. I just waited until I was sure I could get to the Corki and Annie (was it annie? just w/e their AP carry was) that game and I'm sure I missed a handful of better opportunities to initiate that game but again, I don't fucking play Galio and don't want a fail ult that costs us the game. I dunno, when it comes to a 2 minute CD gamebreaking AoE ult, I think playing conservatively is alright (I more or less agree about being overly cautious with ECAs, but red is still adjusting to Ashe, so I'm willing to cut him some slack). | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
Edit: Oh I know, I wasn't talking about your ult in that moment in particular, I was talking more about how no one else is initiating. What'd we have, Sion and Warwick as well in that game? And Mr. Kassadin comes to the initiating rescue. *shrugs* I don't mind doing it, it's how I play, but it's somewhat bewildering to me. Maybe it's people expecting me to do it, maybe people just aren't comfortable initiating, but in every game (for better or for worse, because I mis-judge a hell of a lot of attempts LOL) I feel like I'm always the one initiating and forcing the issue (and getting us wiped hahahahah). | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:22 Southlight wrote: No, for instance. A game a few weeks ago there was a Malzahar dicking around alone, or at the very least only with two others because one was mid and the other was top (we saw him going top), pushing bottom tower. Like, the second bottom tower. Ashe is standing at bottom tower with his entire team. Never mind that half the opposing team wasn't even there, we had 5 people there against a Malzahar with no Cleanse, why am I having to tell the Ashe ECA THE MALZAHAR I mean come on. You have no idea how many kills we've let go because he just won't pull the trigger - we've failed ganks because the ECA doesn't come out except as a follow-up stun most of the time. Our win against Regi was with Tankassadin o_O Cata -> Sorc -> SS -> Cata -> double RoA -> Zhonya. I think you saw it streamed, though, because I remember you messaging Smash about his Galio? Where I initiated the entire freaking game, including that one hilarious instance at mid where I thought we wanted to fight so I rifted through their whole team... and then when Smash told me they weren't bunched up enough I rifted right into Corki to force them to clump onto me (for Galio). Edit: For the record it's not like he can't land the ECA, or whatnot, it just feels like he's afraid of that impending gank that'll countergank us, etc. Intimidation. It was mid, and it was Kennen, with Flash up, at a distance where the stun wouldn't last long enough to get anything done after(the same situation happened like 30 seconds later and I shot the arrow, and the only damage that got onto the person was my followup volley). It was also only 3 of us mid(2 just died top to annie/nunu), and the other 2 people on their team were mia(we found out like 5 seconds later they were top as well but by then the kennen had gone into fog to join his team). But whatever, rage picking veigar because one of the best shaco's there is picked us apart the game before clearly has nothing to do with anything(this is where you'll insert a statement about how your 2 kills were combos that blew annie up after she dumped her combo on our team), and it's all on everyone elses play. Also a team is obviously going to be more willing to clump for a Kass than a Galio, kind of like how our team was doing the exact same thing to their Amumu(arcing around him so he had no good ult placements and took unnecessary poke damage). I think the timidity points probably do ring true for the locust games, but the 1st 2 regi games had nothing to do with playing scared and everything to do with just some not-good play(4-0 shaco in first 8 or so minutes 1st game, 2nd game annie recovers from giving up FB to go legendary because we got lazy on our warding and she roamed the shit out of top jungle). | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:34 Southlight wrote: That last l0cust game was just hilarious and I pointed out the only thing we learned was that stealing red buff with a WW = bad idea because of his slow jungle Wasn't too bothered by it.I know you didn't want to play Panth in the other game (lol infinite ward Gragas) but, I dunno. I mean, it's just an example of how passive we play. Like, that game was more than the Panth, it was Nid losing to TOO and also Annie having Teleport which completely mindfucked us. But if you notice, we struggle to kill even a single tower against a lot of these teams, that's a little bit bizarre, and speaks to how unaggressive we are. Edit: Didn't we have a 180 CS Nidalee in one of those games? When everyone else had at most like 120? And it felt like Nidalee with that much farm could have come back and tried to jack people up... but content sitting in lane and pushing and losing game. I dunno, then you look at Shake against mediocre people jacking golem, running around pushing towers, stealing creep, and hunting weak people down and go "what happen?" lol they teamfight vs. Shake's Nida. I dunno, it doesn't seem like he has the same opportunities to be that disruptive force vs. good teams. I'm willing to chalk it up to a combination of what they're doing and what we're doing, but I think it's naive to expect that we can get away with the same shit vs. no-names as vs. L0CUST and co. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
And uhh, I don't even remember this Kennen business LOL I wasn't looking at any games in particular, just mentioning a trend with our play. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
Anyways, I don't play nid anymore, I just play random champs and try not to suck. Like when I picked Singed/WW. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:49 Mogwai wrote: they teamfight vs. Shake's Nida. I dunno, it doesn't seem like he has the same opportunities to be that disruptive force vs. good teams. I'm willing to chalk it up to a combination of what they're doing and what we're doing, but I think it's naive to expect that we can get away with the same shit vs. no-names as vs. L0CUST and co. That's fine, but there're some games where we have teleport on bot and we're clearly going to out-number them in a teamfight but we don't do it. I often have to teleport FIRST to START a fight, only to see it fail a lot of times because I suck at Taric (T_T). It's why that one game with Baikin I was like we HAVE to ward their Liz and people said "but we're behind" and I was incredulous. Ward Liz + gank them @ it = our best shot at coming back. *shrugs* Oh well. | ||
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