EPTAlso, no sprint for jaina? That is gonna hurt her for sure.
June 30 Patch General Discussion - Page 3
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
Also, no sprint for jaina? That is gonna hurt her for sure. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9396 Posts
The old teamfight/ability-heavy style is obviously nerfed. Shield is weaker, talents come later, double the death-timers. Right now I am taken the other ultimate to compensate and it feels pretty decent. With regards to splitpush-builds, I think the Balrog-based builds might be pretty decent on larger maps. But the issue with this build is that your contribution during teamfights is minimal. And whenever you go for a non teamfighting-based builds it always requires a good amount of coordination from your teammates, which makes those types of style problematic. I guess the "W-talent that adds 1% extra damage of enemy health" per attack helps a bit, but not sure its enough, and if you take this you can't also go with jump. Overall, I think LV definitely has become harder to play well, and I think the talent-choices are more interesting now. But my first impression is that they need to be used on larger maps along with "smart teammates" to be viable. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
They can now function as a utility hero with a lot of lane pressure like Sgt. Hammer and Gazlowe that are weaker in team fights. Can't imagine how Lost Vikings could hope to survive a game of Haunted Mines in this state. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9396 Posts
hey can now function as a utility hero with a lot of lane pressure like Sgt. Hammer and Gazlowe that are weaker in team fights. They don't have lane-pressure in that sense. They are weak in the laning phase but can obviously soak very well when other players go for objectives. With the Balrog-build you can kill minions fast and you can also take the Erik-talent to deal extra damage vs Towers. I also think 64kb marathon (at 16) is probably a must with this build. Unrelated: Now that they nerfed the abilities of the Vikings, I wish they made it possible to use them individually as well. (This doesn't make it harder for new players as you can still use "4 + QWE") EDIT: After playing even more with them, I've identified where I have an issue with the splitpush style. Unlike Abathur that can splitpush and assist the team, the Viking-splitpush style doesn't really offer the team anything. Olaf is very lackluster without the old W and Q, and on top of that he also moves slower. If you use him as a tank he quickly dies as he can't retreat in the proces (and dying is extra bad now with longer death timers). Thus you might as well stay with him in lane to soak. If you take the Balrog-splash talent, then you obviously wanna stay with him in lane too (plus his short range makes it difficult for him to deal damage during teamfights anyway). This leaves only Erik to assist the team and he really doesn't do a whole lot (relative to how much you need to babysit him). That wouldn't be problematic if it was just temporarily at one phase in the game but it's like that all game long - There isn't any talent you can take to maintain a splitpush threat while actually feeling as if you are contributing to teamfights. Ofc a hero that can splitpush well + soak shouldn't be strong during teamfights, but it should still be obvious that your helping the team (so it's like 4.5 vs 5 rather than 4.1 vs 5). My ideal solution (from a design perspective) is to replace the level 16-giant killer active talent with a high-CD skillshot. E.g. an ability similarly to Azmodans Q with a 30-60 second cooldown and relatively long range. This makes it possible to contribute briefly to the teamfight -> Then you can go back to splitpushing --> Once CD is back you help team again. The strenght of the ability could scale with how many Vikings are nearby, which would make it useful both for splitpush-builds and teamfight-focussed builds. This solution still maintains a clear weakness for the splitpush strategy as it is first post-16 you can have a noticeable impact on the team --> Leaving room for the enemy team to get an "objective lead" prior to that. And obviously your not dealing consistent damage over the engagement, which makes it balanceable. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
You can end up with a lot of Withering Fire charges, which then hits two targets, for triple damage against Mercs/Minions. Any Merc camp just vaporizes instantly when you get to unload double Withering Fire with triple damage on Vulnerable targets from Cold Embrace. It also works quite well against Heroes since you're hitting two targets constantly. With any chase on the enemy team the arrow refill also shines and defensively behind your gates you can just use Hauting Wave for 1 second and get an instant refill. In a game on Sky Temple I managed to snipe all three Vikings and Valla with it during a teamfight. Wailing Arrow on all three Vikings and then the Vikings were taking both arrows and died fast, granting me more arrows. I mostly just held Q down for half of it and used Haunting Wave to go after Valla and burned her down with it. | ||
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Garsecg
United States129 Posts
I've been surprised how essential unstable anomaly seems to be. It adds like 10k damage to my stats whenever I pick it, which seems to be a far greater boon than the other lvl 4 talents. 20 seconds on the shield is super-nice. You can actually shield people between going to fountains, it's kind of cool, if a little risky. I've been trying the healing mists talent at 20 but it's tough to notice a difference at that point to be honest. Going to have to continue to reserve judgement on that one until more games are played. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Less damage hurts her splitpush options and the damage loss on polymorph is very noticeable too. Besides that the loss of shield at 4 and gust of healing at 7 are hard to replace. Yes the shield talent at 7 is nice and using it to zip into the fight preferrably on some high priority target is quite nice, but you're just getting a slightly better protective shield that is a bit awkward to use. Gust of healing however is sorely missed, with the new talents you can make some build that has higher average healing perhaps but the reliable burst of gust to recover from an aoe is just hard to replace. Especially with Malf being great now and Rehgar still being very solid I don't see reason to pick others now in hero league. Uther is still okayish too but doesn't really have a good replacement for shield at 4. Perhaps like Rehgar most now, his burst healing is very hard to come by in the metagame. Sure his shield is a little weaker, ult cooldown a little longer and feral heart not as good anymore. He does have the option for cleanse which can be huge and the heal build with all heal talents including the new one at lvl 16 provides a lot of heal for combat. Alternatively I like storm shield build quite a bit on him too. The mana save + increased duration talent at 4 is sweet and I even like empowered charge on butcher or zeratul. | ||
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
- 10 second cd - 20% movement speed - 1 block charge - HoT at lvl4 - 4 second spell shield on lvl13 - bounces at lvl 16 In addition BW has the strongest shield in game with Phase Shield and on a lower cooldown than the old shield. Not sure if I missed something but BW felt extremely strong, especially when supporting melees. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
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ETisME
12476 Posts
 I had been trying out the new map, it is pretty cool but I find it a bit messy with the huge open space at middle and fog of war looks especially unclear on it | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And I ignore the fact that BW is super powerful on the new map lol. Though Zagara Nydus is also epic on this map. Maybe even worth getting it over Maw in some compositions. Funny to nydus near the enemy immortal and Hydra him and then jump back defending your own. I think the Immortals should swap places everytime 50% is reached, feels pretty meh if you are the first one to get 50% and then the opposing team wins a team fight zones you out and takes 100% down. Seems like no reason to be the first one to attack. Just defend your boss and stay in the lanes and have a 3 person roaming squad. But I like progames were the objective is often ignored. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On July 01 2015 23:53 FreeZEternal wrote: I feel like playing ETC again lol to save ppl from the butcher. I wouldn't mind, I will just kill you first.  | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Every time a tier list is released some people lose 100 IQ and stop thinking by themselves. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44561 Posts
On July 01 2015 23:48 ETisME wrote: the new patch is so slow for asia server, it is still not up yet I had been trying out the new map, it is pretty cool but I find it a bit messy with the huge open space at middle and fog of war looks especially unclear on it Yeah I agree with the fog of war comment. There are smokescreen areas but also it's hard to see enemies at an immortal until you're practically on top of them, which is often walking into a perfect gank opportunity unless your whole team goes together. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On July 02 2015 00:07 FeyFey wrote: BW was nerfed ? I think she got better. Guess if people feel so different about her its only a change ? XD I guess it is important that you now need to use Pixie Dust unlike before. And I ignore the fact that BW is super powerful on the new map lol. Though Zagara Nydus is also epic on this map. Maybe even worth getting it over Maw in some compositions. Funny to nydus near the enemy immortal and Hydra him and then jump back defending your own. I think the Immortals should swap places everytime 50% is reached, feels pretty meh if you are the first one to get 50% and then the opposing team wins a team fight zones you out and takes 100% down. Seems like no reason to be the first one to attack. Just defend your boss and stay in the lanes and have a 3 person roaming squad. But I like progames were the objective is often ignored. These pixie dust talents are alright but I miss the damage on Q and W and gust of healing too much. Pixie dust healing is much less in comparison and pixie dust spell shield is nice but so was sprint. New map not paying too much attention to immortals seems good. It's definately not an objective early you want to avoid soaking lanes for. | ||
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Ritha
United States29 Posts
First, they nerfed Anub and Jaina, but only a small amount. Good. They are incredibly strong at their roles to the point that they were pushing other heros out. They will both still be used, and are still strong. They dealt with them properly. Second, they gutted Vikings. Vikings are terrible design. A moba where you don't need to last hit, and where everyone on your team globally shares the rewards of being in a lane... And it is a good idea to put in a hero that can soak 2+ lanes with ease, is very strong in team fights, and barely rewards the enemy at all for killing them? No, they needed to be gutted. While the stats from hotslogs aren't perfect, comparing the 45% win rate of Abathur (#2 soaker) to the 58% of Vikings shows everything. I bet that they will still have a better than 50% win rate after this patch just because their base design is so absurdly strong for the systems in this game. We'll see how it works out, but my money is on >50% win rate, still super strong. Their design is just so, so good. Third, the 3 healer reworks. Glorious. Blizzard is getting better at the meaningful talent choices. The entire point of this talent system is that you are supposed to have meaningful choices every few levels on how you want to build your hero. There isn't supposed to be one obvious best path, you are supposed to use your talents to adapt to how the game is playing out and to specialize for your team composition. BW, Malf and Rhegar now have multiple talent tiers where they can actually make a meaningful choice. Butcher's talents are also well done for the most part. One of the core mechanics of the game is actually getting filled out, and that makes me happy. I'm hoping that the BW remake also works out as a slight nerf, because she was crazy strong. Yeeup. Slight nerfs to the overbearing in their role, large nerfs to the game-breaking, fiddle with stuff to make more viable build paths. The game needs more of these patches. | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
My only concern with that is how hard it is to avoid the damage and how much it heals him. I'm guessing The Butcher is a bit like Illidan and you'll need to stun/zone him out to deal with him properly or that just happens. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Try that against a Jaina on level 16. Thrall and Sonya are like, we could heal like that too, then we got an nerf arrow to the knee. I like the Butcher, but he dies really easily but he does need a different set of supports then Illidan or Kerrigan so he might expand on what we see in progames. But since you can lure Butchers really easily with their charge I am not sure we will see him there. Oh and I think Aba might be better then Vikings again. So I hope they remove a few of the speed debuffs on the Vikings. To increase their survivability. | ||
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