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On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet.
Do you have a link to IdrA's post please?
edit: nevermind, found it. Here is it for those who are interested: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/12090029327
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On March 18 2014 05:40 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet. Do you have a link to IdrA's post please? edit: nevermind, found it. Here is it for those who are interested: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/12090029327
Edit: Never mind! =)
I read the thread and it was very interesting. I'll be sure to check in on it from time to time.
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Indeed, he brings some very valid points.
I can't express just how much I agree with IdrA on the social issue. On BNet 2.0, you feel utterly alone. It's somewhat (not really) acceptable, because it's largely a 1v1 game, but for team-based game... You have to feel like you can get in touch with people easily. It's a critical aspect.
I honestly wish Blizzard would take this opportunity to bring back features from WC3's BNet. It was simply amazing: very chat-oriented, simple and straightforward. Sadly, I pretty much know it's never going to happen. People made the same complaints when SC2's BNet interface was shown, and, correct me if I'm mistaken, but there were no major changes and the social aspect of SC2 is still almost non-existent. Blizzard is doing it on purpose so that they can control everything that is being said, and therefore prevent verbal abuse, meaning it is very, very likely to stay that way.
It's good that people like IdrA and Khaldor are bringing up the issue, and I'm sure other people will do the same, but I don't see Blizzard changing their stance on it. Hopefully they will, though.
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Canada13387 Posts
As to the notion that bnet 2.0 is alone, its surprising to me.
The only thing a game like LoL does "better" than SC2 for communication is the fact theres a post game screen with a chat box. Other than that the bnet chat system is actually a lot better and has more support for social functions than League does. I don't play much DotA 2 and havent played it in a very very long time so I can't speak to its chat system.
The one thing heroes should allow is cross team chat, since honestly, Trash talk and toxicity is often within the team in these DotA and LoL style games and not between teams. It would be nice to be able to gg to your opponents for example.
IMO, honestly, even in SC2 unless your opponent flat out puts you on ignore its not too hard to talk to them. Though I do really really dislike the "only accept messages from ppl on friends list" stuff, since it makes it impossible to get a practice partner even in Diamond league :/
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On March 18 2014 05:10 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 05:07 Shaella wrote:On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet. I don't think its really possible to comeback in HotS in its current state, at least from what i've seen I agree but I don't think that's intended. Right now hero kill XP is too high and death timers are too long. Read this as well: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/12090029327#1
I don't think its intended either. But i wonder with the way the game is designed if there'a good way to combat that snowballing
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On March 18 2014 04:40 Fries wrote:
People often confuse complexity with skill cap. You can teach some soccer, minus the intricacies in about 5 minutes, but a great team is going to slaughter a poor one and I imagine the same will be true in Heroes of the Storm.
People are already starting to put together that maybe what's viable in other MOBA games won't be viable here. Questions like Kishin bring up are good ones. I was watching a game the other day where one team sent 4 people in the mines to ensure they get the biggest possible golem, but in the meantime the other team forfeit the mines and were able to take almost every other merc camp on the map. There's going to be a lot of quick decision making and team play in this game.
Likewise, it's probably going to be better to make sure those merc camps aren't up when the other objectives pop up to prevent things like this from happening. Since xp is shared, maybe it's better to have one player who's really good at lane clearing and 4 push down some towers for that extra xp. These are all things that most players seem to have not even started thinking about yet and probably only scratches the surface of what will be viable.
Soccer is a pretty complex game with individual mechanics that can be leveled up a lot as well. Messi is going to be doing stuff with the ball most people can't even comprehend. One person can definitely take over the game.
It's such a bad analogy to apply to Heroes.
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On March 18 2014 08:17 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 04:40 Fries wrote:
People often confuse complexity with skill cap. You can teach some soccer, minus the intricacies in about 5 minutes, but a great team is going to slaughter a poor one and I imagine the same will be true in Heroes of the Storm.
People are already starting to put together that maybe what's viable in other MOBA games won't be viable here. Questions like Kishin bring up are good ones. I was watching a game the other day where one team sent 4 people in the mines to ensure they get the biggest possible golem, but in the meantime the other team forfeit the mines and were able to take almost every other merc camp on the map. There's going to be a lot of quick decision making and team play in this game.
Likewise, it's probably going to be better to make sure those merc camps aren't up when the other objectives pop up to prevent things like this from happening. Since xp is shared, maybe it's better to have one player who's really good at lane clearing and 4 push down some towers for that extra xp. These are all things that most players seem to have not even started thinking about yet and probably only scratches the surface of what will be viable. Soccer is a pretty complex game with individual mechanics that can be leveled up a lot as well. Messi is going to be doing stuff with the ball most people can't even comprehend. One person can definitely take over the game. It's such a bad analogy to apply to Heroes.
yeah, rather odd that he uses an analogy like that and even say 'minus the intricacies', one would think the 'intricacies', are exactly what make hardcore, complex games, well hardcore and complex.
if you remove intricacies and dumb down to core concepts, any sport or competition can seem remarkably simple.
move the ball across the goal
throw the ball in the basket
be the first to cross the finish line
etc etc
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On March 18 2014 08:30 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 08:17 hariooo wrote:On March 18 2014 04:40 Fries wrote:
People often confuse complexity with skill cap. You can teach some soccer, minus the intricacies in about 5 minutes, but a great team is going to slaughter a poor one and I imagine the same will be true in Heroes of the Storm.
People are already starting to put together that maybe what's viable in other MOBA games won't be viable here. Questions like Kishin bring up are good ones. I was watching a game the other day where one team sent 4 people in the mines to ensure they get the biggest possible golem, but in the meantime the other team forfeit the mines and were able to take almost every other merc camp on the map. There's going to be a lot of quick decision making and team play in this game.
Likewise, it's probably going to be better to make sure those merc camps aren't up when the other objectives pop up to prevent things like this from happening. Since xp is shared, maybe it's better to have one player who's really good at lane clearing and 4 push down some towers for that extra xp. These are all things that most players seem to have not even started thinking about yet and probably only scratches the surface of what will be viable. Soccer is a pretty complex game with individual mechanics that can be leveled up a lot as well. Messi is going to be doing stuff with the ball most people can't even comprehend. One person can definitely take over the game. It's such a bad analogy to apply to Heroes. yeah, rather odd that he uses an analogy like that and even say 'minus the intricacies', one would think the 'intricacies', are exactly what make hardcore, complex games, well hardcore and complex. if you remove intricacies and dumb down to core concepts, any sport or competition can seem remarkably simple. move the ball across the goal throw the ball in the basket be the first to cross the finish line etc etc
That's exactly why I used the analogy. Easy to play, hard to master. This to me is the ideal situation for video games as well and has simply not been true of recent MOBAs. There's usually a huge barrier to entry in the form of hundreds of items the game just throws at you. They've tried to ease this pain a little bit by just letting you see recommended items and build those, but at a certain point a new player is going to have to learn every single item and which is viable. It can be extremely overwhelming as I'm sure many people remember.
I appreciate what Blizzard has done to ease that pain by not only letting you make simple picks of one out of two to four, but also not even showing you options that are simply not valid for your hero/champion.
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I still cant believe they actually call two of their games HotS^^
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Netherlands45349 Posts
For the social aspect there needs to be a way to communicate for your team, you CAN make friends this way as well as make jokes or whatever, it can enhance the fun, sure there is toxicity in there too(when did we start to use that stupid term anyway?) but the social and teamwork benefits outweigh the bad for me. Something that often occured in WC3 Dota 1 is that there were people who after playing together took the initiative to host another game with the same people ( gg, go re? same name?). Not Lol, not Dota nor SC2 has this and it is a feature I would really like to see. Simply allow the option for people to que another game with the same people, if they decline then so be it but it would make it so people can make some friends instead of passing through each other during matchmaking. In my experience I have actually made very little new friends on Dota itself but rather with people I knew from other communities who happened to play Dota or with friends of friends who I knew before outside of Dota.
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Another thing they can do is to give bonus gold/exp for groups that increases with the amount of players in the stack(something like +100 gold*number of players). This will encourage the players to form 5 men parties and will make the game much more fun. Also voice chat is 100% required for that game.
And btw, this game actually needs mechanically heavy heroes. From what I've seen most of the heroes are pretty simple with 1 or 2 easy skill shots and not much complexity to them. If they are going to make the game mechanics so simple, the heroes should allow more freedom for the more skilled players. This will make the game actually "easy to pick-up, hard to master". More "Lee Sins" and less "Ryzes" if you know what I mean.
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On March 18 2014 08:57 Fries wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 08:30 crms wrote:On March 18 2014 08:17 hariooo wrote:On March 18 2014 04:40 Fries wrote:
People often confuse complexity with skill cap. You can teach some soccer, minus the intricacies in about 5 minutes, but a great team is going to slaughter a poor one and I imagine the same will be true in Heroes of the Storm.
People are already starting to put together that maybe what's viable in other MOBA games won't be viable here. Questions like Kishin bring up are good ones. I was watching a game the other day where one team sent 4 people in the mines to ensure they get the biggest possible golem, but in the meantime the other team forfeit the mines and were able to take almost every other merc camp on the map. There's going to be a lot of quick decision making and team play in this game.
Likewise, it's probably going to be better to make sure those merc camps aren't up when the other objectives pop up to prevent things like this from happening. Since xp is shared, maybe it's better to have one player who's really good at lane clearing and 4 push down some towers for that extra xp. These are all things that most players seem to have not even started thinking about yet and probably only scratches the surface of what will be viable. Soccer is a pretty complex game with individual mechanics that can be leveled up a lot as well. Messi is going to be doing stuff with the ball most people can't even comprehend. One person can definitely take over the game. It's such a bad analogy to apply to Heroes. yeah, rather odd that he uses an analogy like that and even say 'minus the intricacies', one would think the 'intricacies', are exactly what make hardcore, complex games, well hardcore and complex. if you remove intricacies and dumb down to core concepts, any sport or competition can seem remarkably simple. move the ball across the goal throw the ball in the basket be the first to cross the finish line etc etc That's exactly why I used the analogy. Easy to play, hard to master. This to me is the ideal situation for video games as well and has simply not been true of recent MOBAs. There's usually a huge barrier to entry in the form of hundreds of items the game just throws at you. They've tried to ease this pain a little bit by just letting you see recommended items and build those, but at a certain point a new player is going to have to learn every single item and which is viable. It can be extremely overwhelming as I'm sure many people remember. I appreciate what Blizzard has done to ease that pain by not only letting you make simple picks of one out of two to four, but also not even showing you options that are simply not valid for your hero/champion.
You can apply "hard to master" to almost any video game.
Anyway it's like people were sold on Blizzard DOTA because they were interested in Blizzard's take on the genre. But it's like asking for an FPS and ending up with World of Tanks. Sure you're still shooting other people and there's definitely a niche for the game but that's not what people really expected.
Not to mention this game basically rewards ratdota strategy that, while legitimate, is frowned upon in other games.You're really encouraging teams not to interact with each other, especially for the winning team. Social features nerfed in-game as well apparently.
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On March 18 2014 12:29 hariooo wrote:
You can apply "hard to master" to almost any video game.
Anyway it's like people were sold on Blizzard DOTA because they were interested in Blizzard's take on the genre. But it's like asking for an FPS and ending up with World of Tanks. Sure you're still shooting other people and there's definitely a niche for the game but that's not what people really expected.
Not to mention this game basically rewards ratdota strategy that, while legitimate, is frowned upon in other games.You're really encouraging teams not to interact with each other, especially for the winning team. Social features nerfed in-game as well apparently.
Correct, you can. But not "easy to play." Or perhaps I should have said easy to learn.
You can try to put words in peoples mouths all you want and speculate as to why people like what they've seen thus far from Heroes. I personally wanted a change in the genre. Dota was a very fun mod but it seems developers were of the opinion that it was just perfect from the start and there was no reason to change anything, or at least very little. As a result we got another handful of very fun games that were more or less the same. To use your FPS analogy I feel like we've been playing one version or another of Wolfenstein 3D for the last decade. And while that also was a great game, thank goodness we also got Quake and Rainbow 6.
I don't know about not encouraging teams to interact. From the streams I've watched you can talk to your teammates, ping and put waypoints down on the map. A chatroom after the game similar to League would be nice, but this is an alpha and that's exactly the type of thing that would be easily expanded on.
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People like items; they like earning them; and they like using them on enemy players after earning them. From what I can tell, there are talents that allow for some customization in Heroes, but it doesn't look like enough.
I especially agree with IdrA saying there needs to be higher risk/reward play, and items can be one way of achieving this. Try making items available on some maps, or make it so people can mod the game to include items (iirc, Blizzard said people will be able to make maps, something like "we want to give the players as many tools as possible).
I don't want to see items become a farm fest to the point where I'm supposed to apologize to a carry for stealing his kill. That's bloody stupid...we should be high-fiving in virtual space. The carry can be happy because he gained a large chunk of XP and can get better at what he already does, but I'd also like to see synergy with items. Items allow for more extreme heroes, at least the way the items work in DotA and League. It's fun to be really good at something.
It's boring to see players kill enemy minions solely for the purpose of gaining XP and pushing the lane. I want some sort of bounty on those creeps, and a bonus for a last hit. There appear to be a few different minion types; perhaps the rarer ones can award a bounty, while generic ones can remain the fodder they are. It's also silly how long it takes a high level hero to clear a single wave of minions. I'll get bored watching Uther hammer any more of those things to death, taking so long to do it.
Additionally, towers need to do more damage, both to balance out increased hero power due to items, and because they kind of look like a joke. Stitches hooking a dude to a tower should feel like a significant threat, even if Stitches is by himself, but right now, it looks like you can shrug it off for the most part. A skill shot should be fairly high risk/reward. In DotA, the high risk for Pudge is the prohibitive mana cost early game, as well as revealing your position sometimes, plus it's easy to hook the wrong target.
DotA has its weak points too, regarding items. Blink dagger, Eul's, and BKB are more noticeable than hero abilities themselves sometimes. It takes away from the flavor of heroes when half the players in a game have blink daggers. It can create stupid standoff situations where it's better to react than to act (this isn't a fundamentally flawed concept, but if it leads to a ton of inaction, it can get boring fast, similar to people hunkering behind pillars in a WoW arena).
As far as stale situations (yes, standoffs can be tense and exciting too), it might do to have some environmental effects like frequently mentioned lava surges in SC2. These don't necessarily need to push players together like the hated WoW arena Ring of Valor, but they can create opportunities for something to happen, for someone to exploit.
Maybe instead of items they can make the hero talents a little more extreme, but I'd still probably prefer items, just not to the point where each game is a 45* minute hassle in which I get yelled at for stealing someone's creep. And please make it so the community can create maps with items even if it's not a part of the "official" game.
*edited 40 to 45--just felt it was right
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On March 18 2014 02:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 01:43 NukeD wrote:On March 16 2014 12:21 Pr0wler wrote:On March 16 2014 10:11 Ryuu314 wrote:
Haven't played it yet, so I can't speak to the gameplay aspect of it, but the whole mounts thing looks...stupid. I get that part of it is another cash stream for Blizzard as people can buy mounts, plus there's some gameplay value to it since different heroes have different mount abilities and such, but visually it just looks lame. Diablo riding a freaking rainbow pony? Really? You call it lame, but that is a total win in my book. Thats a book I wouldnt want to look into.. Why so serious? Why can Diablo ride a tiny rainbow pony? Why can he be pretty like everyone else? Maybe he likes friendship is magic and pixy sticks!!! Why can't we just enjoy how silly it is for Diable to ride on the tiny, tiny pony?
I do appreciate good humor. However Diablo riding a rainbow pony is not good humor. Its just forced, half-assed, corny and predictable.
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Just saw Artosis stream this for a bit. Looks fun. Someone on his team was a BARCODE. Better not let people see your sick HoS builds!
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so, like, I'm probably stupid and all, and I haven't seen enough of HotS yet. But since they are trying to make the game be different form other mobas: What if your heroes somehow leveled up outside of the matches?
I saw some talenttrees and realized how much I miss theorizing about what talents to take. And how much fun Arena was in WoW. I know this will not happen, but having your chosen hero keep levels after matches would be cool. It would make it grind to "win" yes, but probably a lot of fun.
I was a sceptic of this game first, but blizzard knows how to make leveling up fun. And leveling up sure is fun, so as long as you can have and make strong synergy and plays with your friends and heroes the game looks good. Just have to remind yourself that it's NOT Dota 
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On March 18 2014 09:46 Zeon0 wrote:
I still cant believe they actually call two of their games HotS^^
The previous name would even be more hilarious. Blizzard All Stars would become BALLS.
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On March 18 2014 20:18 Gluttony wrote:so, like, I'm probably stupid and all, and I haven't seen enough of HotS yet. But since they are trying to make the game be different form other mobas: What if your heroes somehow leveled up outside of the matches? I saw some talenttrees and realized how much I miss theorizing about what talents to take. And how much fun Arena was in WoW. I know this will not happen, but having your chosen hero keep levels after matches would be cool. It would make it grind to "win" yes, but probably a lot of fun. I was a sceptic of this game first, but blizzard knows how to make leveling up fun. And leveling up sure is fun, so as long as you can have and make strong synergy and plays with your friends and heroes the game looks good. Just have to remind yourself that it's NOT Dota
Leveling heroes outside of matches would give advantage to old players and bring imbalances.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On March 18 2014 20:42 Fwizzz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 20:18 Gluttony wrote:so, like, I'm probably stupid and all, and I haven't seen enough of HotS yet. But since they are trying to make the game be different form other mobas: What if your heroes somehow leveled up outside of the matches? I saw some talenttrees and realized how much I miss theorizing about what talents to take. And how much fun Arena was in WoW. I know this will not happen, but having your chosen hero keep levels after matches would be cool. It would make it grind to "win" yes, but probably a lot of fun. I was a sceptic of this game first, but blizzard knows how to make leveling up fun. And leveling up sure is fun, so as long as you can have and make strong synergy and plays with your friends and heroes the game looks good. Just have to remind yourself that it's NOT Dota Leveling heroes outside of matches would give advantage to old players and bring imbalances.
This is essentially what League does though, although there is an overall cap in League so players who have played longer don't get stronger indefinitely.
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EPT
