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On March 18 2014 00:33 Kishin2 wrote:
If the game is objective based and experience is shared, why do people lane? Shouldn't everyone pick strong team fight heroes and roam as 5 from objective to objective?
Objectives don't start right away. There is some ramp up time. The "laning phase" in HOTS is only a couple of minutes long. Some objectives require you to split up and some require you to team up. If you grouped as 5 right off the bat you'd miss out on tons of XP since you need a hero in the general area to get XP. So the enemy will be getting 3 lanes of XP and you'll be getting 1.
Dragon map is a poster child for ganking and splitting lanes. You basically need to control top and bot and push mid to get the dragon objectives.
Raven map is a poster child for teaming up. When the objective spawns all lanes should be abandoned and the objective met.
Undead mines is interesting because you can either split up, ignore the objective or team up. They probably need to balance the 100 skull golumn upwards so outright losing the objective is crippling instead of an annoyance.
I haven't played the pirate ship map in versus but it rewards splitting in certain areas and grouping in others. Mainly the chests.
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On March 16 2014 12:21 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 10:11 Ryuu314 wrote:
Haven't played it yet, so I can't speak to the gameplay aspect of it, but the whole mounts thing looks...stupid. I get that part of it is another cash stream for Blizzard as people can buy mounts, plus there's some gameplay value to it since different heroes have different mount abilities and such, but visually it just looks lame. Diablo riding a freaking rainbow pony? Really? You call it lame, but that is a total win in my book.
Thats a book I wouldnt want to look into..
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On March 18 2014 01:43 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 12:21 Pr0wler wrote:On March 16 2014 10:11 Ryuu314 wrote:
Haven't played it yet, so I can't speak to the gameplay aspect of it, but the whole mounts thing looks...stupid. I get that part of it is another cash stream for Blizzard as people can buy mounts, plus there's some gameplay value to it since different heroes have different mount abilities and such, but visually it just looks lame. Diablo riding a freaking rainbow pony? Really? You call it lame, but that is a total win in my book. Thats a book I wouldnt want to look into..
Why so serious? Why can Diablo ride a tiny rainbow pony? Why can he be pretty like everyone else? Maybe he likes friendship is magic and pixy sticks!!! Why can't we just enjoy how silly it is for Diable to ride on the tiny, tiny pony?
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I'm no moba expert, but as someone who played the original wc3 dota, it seems weird to me that they put in shared exp and no items. To me, the ability to farm exp, get gold to spend, and collect items were two of the biggest things players with superior skill could use to get ahead, not to mention the fun factor of trying to land killing hits and get your great items together. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I see a lot of the games playing out exactly the same with little differentiation.
The thing that gets me excited about this game is just the fact that there are multiple maps with different objectives. This is something that I don't see why the other dota style games don't have.
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Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages.
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On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages.
Or that the game is on a strict timer on when people can press the advantage. Ganking right before an objective comes up is pretty good.
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On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages.
I'm sorry but that doesn't even make sense.
If you can't use skill or knowledge to get ahead what are you doing, rolling a dice?!
Blizzard just wants to simplify the concepts so that it's easier to pick up for new players. They've just compacted items and xp into one level so that you don't have to learn what 40+ items do.
The choice to merge everyone's level is intriguing... it means that weakers players are pulled up and are as strong as their better team-mates. This means the best players can't dominate a game, but also that weaker players will not be completely taken out of the game to the point where they can't do anything.
As for pressing an advantage... this game snowballs incredibly quickly if the teams are uneven. I just watched Destinys 5man premade destroy Elvines 4man team, despite them being decent players. They got 7 levels ahead by 5 minutes in. The game doesn't drag out if you're losing.
Now the lack of depth might mean that the game gets boring very quickly as there's not much to learn, we'll see.
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I'm talking checkers vs chess here. Obviously there are superior strategies and ways to win, but the game is designed to avoid giving players the option to lose horribly.
Better players still win, but the strategic depth and difference between "decent" and "godly" players is actively being attacked by blizzard to keep the casuals happy. WHICH IS FINE. THATS WHAT BLIZZARD WANT. If blizzard has decided that checkers is more viable than chess in terms of a game to release, then they can do that. Personally, I expect I'd enjoy chess more but that won't stop me from playing a bit of checkers with friends every so often.
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On March 18 2014 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm talking checkers vs chess here. Obviously there are superior strategies and ways to win, but the game is designed to avoid giving players the option to lose horribly.
Better players still win, but the strategic depth and difference between "decent" and "godly" players is actively being attacked by blizzard to keep the casuals happy. WHICH IS FINE. THATS WHAT BLIZZARD WANT. If blizzard has decided that checkers is more viable than chess in terms of a game to release, then they can do that. Personally, I expect I'd enjoy chess more but that won't stop me from playing a bit of checkers with friends every so often.
That is a good point actually. How are the best players going to show it?
Stopping individual players from dominating will also stop them from standing out.
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On March 18 2014 04:03 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm talking checkers vs chess here. Obviously there are superior strategies and ways to win, but the game is designed to avoid giving players the option to lose horribly.
Better players still win, but the strategic depth and difference between "decent" and "godly" players is actively being attacked by blizzard to keep the casuals happy. WHICH IS FINE. THATS WHAT BLIZZARD WANT. If blizzard has decided that checkers is more viable than chess in terms of a game to release, then they can do that. Personally, I expect I'd enjoy chess more but that won't stop me from playing a bit of checkers with friends every so often. That is a good point actually. How are the best players going to show it? Stopping individual players from dominating will also stop them from standing out.
Well, let's frame the question another way.
In a traditional MOBA, if two players engage in a fight, and it is clearly decided in the favour of the player with the higher level, is it easy to separate the contribution due to level disparity versus the individual skill? What factors would one have to consider?
In HOTS, if opposing teams are roughly equivalent in level, how might those factors be applied?
I'm new to MOBAs, having only played a few games of DOTA2 when The International was taking place, so please consider me a complete novice for the sake of this discussion.
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On March 18 2014 04:03 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm talking checkers vs chess here. Obviously there are superior strategies and ways to win, but the game is designed to avoid giving players the option to lose horribly.
Better players still win, but the strategic depth and difference between "decent" and "godly" players is actively being attacked by blizzard to keep the casuals happy. WHICH IS FINE. THATS WHAT BLIZZARD WANT. If blizzard has decided that checkers is more viable than chess in terms of a game to release, then they can do that. Personally, I expect I'd enjoy chess more but that won't stop me from playing a bit of checkers with friends every so often. That is a good point actually. How are the best players going to show it? Stopping individual players from dominating will also stop them from standing out.
That's what people have been saying is the problem with this game, hots has a very low skillcap which stunts its potential as a competitive game.
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That's interesting. How much XP do Hero kills give early on? Do towers and buildings give XP? If so, how much?
Some of the objectives take so long to complete, mainly the mine Golem one, that it might be better off to just send one tanky/mobile hero while the rest of the team clears the map. Heroes in general are so tanky that it shouldn't be a complete suicide.
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On March 18 2014 04:16 kingjames01 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 04:03 Klive5ive wrote:On March 18 2014 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm talking checkers vs chess here. Obviously there are superior strategies and ways to win, but the game is designed to avoid giving players the option to lose horribly.
Better players still win, but the strategic depth and difference between "decent" and "godly" players is actively being attacked by blizzard to keep the casuals happy. WHICH IS FINE. THATS WHAT BLIZZARD WANT. If blizzard has decided that checkers is more viable than chess in terms of a game to release, then they can do that. Personally, I expect I'd enjoy chess more but that won't stop me from playing a bit of checkers with friends every so often. That is a good point actually. How are the best players going to show it? Stopping individual players from dominating will also stop them from standing out. Well, let's frame the question another way. In a traditional MOBA, if two players engage in a fight, and it is clearly decided in the favour of the player with the higher level, is it easy to separate the contribution due to level disparity versus the individual skill? What factors would one have to consider? In HOTS, if opposing teams are roughly equivalent in level, how might those factors be applied? I'm new to MOBAs, having only played a few games of DOTA2 when The International was taking place, so please consider me a complete novice for the sake of this discussion.
I'd say their knowledge of the game, and most of all their knowledge of the maps. Game sense would also be a factor, along with execution, decision-making, team play, and hero line-up. Possibly a better synergy between heroes and talents. Those things also obviously matter in a DotA/HoN/LoL game, but they are added on top of level and farm. All HotS does is remove two big factors to focus on the rest.
On-topic:
I don't mind the removal of items so much. I think the concept of the maps more than make up for it. They implement designs that force battles, which is fun and entertaining. That's what people want in a MOBA (usually at least), fighting other people almost constantly.
Items wouldn't fit in HotS at all, or they would all have to be incredibly cheap and versatile. The main characteristic of items in DotA/HoN/LoL is that some of them are really high-end game, and cost 5000+ gold. To make those items, you either need to seriously stomp everybody or sit down and farm for a few minutes, with vision and, ideally, protection from your mates. This wouldn't work at all in HotS.
I find the idea of relying on skill trees and maps rather fresh. Though it's possible that Blizzard may have put themselves in a corner here, as in order to keep the game fresh and not overly repetitive, they'll need to introduce new maps fairly often. Obviously, all games are repetitive when you play them on a regular basis, but still, the map system does not offer as much flexibility as items do, since the way they work is... linear. You play on a certain map, you learn what it's about, then you pretty much know how games generally go and you become familiar with the pace. This changes with every map, but there are only so many maps they can release, so eventually most players will know what to do and will understand how maps work, and it might become quite repetitive. This is in opposition to a game with items, where you have dozens of different viable combinations, on top of unusual and funky builds. This actually also applies to skills, since in DotA/HoN/LoL, your choice of skills matters and creates a specific build which usually focuses on one or two aspects. That seems dampened in HotS, as skill trees aren't quite entire skills, merely "add-ons".
Well, time will tell. I think it could be very fun, and it looks refreshing. I'm just slightly skeptical regarding Blizzard's ability to come up with new maps on a regular basis, or revamp existing maps for the sake of variety.
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People often confuse complexity with skill cap. You can teach some soccer, minus the intricacies in about 5 minutes, but a great team is going to slaughter a poor one and I imagine the same will be true in Heroes of the Storm.
People are already starting to put together that maybe what's viable in other MOBA games won't be viable here. Questions like Kishin bring up are good ones. I was watching a game the other day where one team sent 4 people in the mines to ensure they get the biggest possible golem, but in the meantime the other team forfeit the mines and were able to take almost every other merc camp on the map. There's going to be a lot of quick decision making and team play in this game.
Likewise, it's probably going to be better to make sure those merc camps aren't up when the other objectives pop up to prevent things like this from happening. Since xp is shared, maybe it's better to have one player who's really good at lane clearing and 4 push down some towers for that extra xp. These are all things that most players seem to have not even started thinking about yet and probably only scratches the surface of what will be viable.
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I think I read somewhere that Blizzard plans on releasing modding tools for HotS? If that's true, then someone might make a more competitive focused mod with that. Seems like a thing for Blizzard anyways.
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On March 18 2014 04:42 Kishin2 wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Blizzard plans on releasing modding tools for HotS? If that's true, then someone might make a more competitive focused mod with that. Seems like a thing for Blizzard anyways.
Already happened and people are making cool stuff. However, making yet another Moba that is hyper competitive is likely a waste of time. That market is filled right now.
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On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages.
Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet.
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On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet.
I don't think its really possible to comeback in HotS in its current state, at least from what i've seen
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On March 18 2014 05:07 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet. I don't think its really possible to comeback in HotS in its current state, at least from what i've seen
I agree but I don't think that's intended. Right now hero kill XP is too high and death timers are too long.
Read this as well: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/12090029327#1
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On March 18 2014 05:07 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 05:06 Cheren wrote:On March 18 2014 02:48 Sn0_Man wrote:
Using skill and knowledge to get ahead is exactly what Blizzard doesn't want. They want games where both teams feel like they are "in it" and having fun the whole game, which to a large degree means removing ways to press advantages. Something I've noticed from watching other mobas (mostly LoL, this is less true in Dota) is that the team that's behind very rarely comes back unless the ahead team makes a huge mistake. I think Heroes of the Storm wants to prevent that by focusing on objectives instead of farming (also objectives are more fun than farming for casuals) but from what I've seen it's very easy to snowball a huge shared XP lead. Without playing, I'd say maybe XP for hero kills should be reduced, and I also agree with the massive post Idra made a few days ago on bnet. I don't think its really possible to comeback in HotS in its current state, at least from what i've seen
I've actually seen a few in the past few days. They've been very hard-fought and the games were immensely satisfying from a viewer's perspective.
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EPT
