EPTHeroes Large General Thread - Page 67
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NonY
8751 Posts
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nGBeast
United States914 Posts
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On February 25 2014 07:04 Kupon3ss wrote: To me the issue of pay2win is that its such a large market segment that most multiplayer games nowadays fall into. Obviously there are games on the two extremes of the spectrum that can easily be defined. DotA and sc2, for example, are not pay2win under any definition since one has access to the entire game. The other extreme is the blatant pay2win of something like the old WoT model, certain MMOs, or that of many exploitative mobile games in which it is required to pay to even compete on a fair level. The vast majority of "competitive" online games nowadays fall into something I'd like to call "freetogrind". This is a model in which *"in theory"* everything that can affect game balance is attainable from playing the game, but are simply nearly unattainable without strict devotion to the game (or paying). Things like LoL, Hearthstone, WorldofTanks, AoeOnline, etc. are all based on that to varying degrees. The key separation those games make is that it is possible to "be competitive" with a small amount of the game available to you. Be it unit, tank, champion choices etc, the games offer you the ability to roughly equivalent loadouts without the entire gamut of possibilities. Think of that as playing DotA where you have a limited hero pool or SC2 in which you only have one race. Those games are balanced at a certain level with certain comparable loadouts or setups. In relation to Hearthstone; after playing for a couple of months you'd likely have the cards (after disenchanting all non-vital cards) to build a "decent" deck that is probably pretty close to competitive. The advantage that money gives is simply time and grind to various levels and other options that are in theory equivalent (but are often marginally stronger to obtain more income). This is the same idea used in Heroes and there's really nothing wrong with it on a balance-based level. Obviously in the long term people can "own the entire game" or "have all the options", but neither of those things are required to be competitive. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:00 Plansix wrote: That would be pay to win. But league of legends isn't like that. There are no better champions, only different ones. Some are strong due to the meta at the time, but it is normally a spectrum of champions, not one champion. heroes is supposed to be the same way. Get the **** out of here lol now you're just trolling. On March 15 2014 06:05 NonY wrote: What? I mean happy birthday. But what? On March 15 2014 06:05 nGBeast wrote: Can we stop with the stupid fucking LoL and dota bashing. Who fucking cares? Not our fault none of you guys can think of a single interesting Heroes discussion to get going. Quite telling. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:00 Plansix wrote: That would be pay to win. But league of legends isn't like that. There are no better champions, only different ones. Some are strong due to the meta at the time, but it is normally a spectrum of champions, not one champion. heroes is supposed to be the same way. yeah, and new heros come out and are powerful and you have to buy them THE GAME IS P2W | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:02 SagaZ wrote: can you guys take your "dota vs LoL" and "is LoL pay2win" garbage somewhere else? thank you Fine Heroes of the storm is p2w too happy? | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:07 Kupon3ss wrote: funfact: it takes more than 300 days of 24/7lol games to unlock everything that affects power balance in the game, but I would agree that it's not pay2win i see what youre saying but think thats a line evryone has to draw for himself. for me an unrealistic grind or play with limited and/or inferior options is pay2win and a business model i avoid like plague. i rather just pay upfront and be done with it or play free and give them money for convenience (path of exile stash tabs) or fancyness (dota2 evrything outside of tickets). well the game is more or less dead to me with that(not that i expected much). maybe dl it once its out. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
I especially like the concept of the maps. They're small, and they have mechanics designed to force battle, which I think is wicked cool in a MOBA. I'll definitely try the game out, though I was skeptical at first. I'm surprised they released alpha to streamers and stuff... It looks like Blizzard wants to totally abuse the advertising value of Twitch, which is good I guess. They hyped the living hell out of Hearthstone with beta streaming, and it seems they're taking it even further with HotS, since it's only alpha. It's probably going to work too, ~20 to 30k viewers on HotS on Twitch for the past 1-2 days. I hope they move into beta soon, I foresee some Twitch/community/reddit giveaways happening. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:07 Kupon3ss wrote: funfact: it takes more than 300 days of 24/7lol games to unlock everything that affects power balance in the game, but I would agree that it's not pay2win This is the same idea used in Heroes and there's really nothing wrong with it on a balance-based level. Obviously in the long term people can "own the entire game" or "have all the options", but neither of those things are required to be competitive. I think it's a little useless to say definitively if something is pay to win or not pay to win, you can only kinda say if it's more or less pay to win than another game or some other example. For example, in hearthstone let's say for the SSC tourney I gave half the competitors $100 and 1 week to grind cards and the other half of the competitors just 1 week to grind cards. In a purely non-pay to win game in 1 week time they'd be on the exact same footing, which is definitely not true where in the lightest case one half of the tourney contenders would have more sleep at least. However, I agree that they can still be competitive but on the spectrum of pay to winess it's obviously higher than a card game (that goes bankrupt) that only sells card backs and gold cards and lower than a game where legendaries are $5, epics are $1 and that's the only way to get them. I don't think defining pay to win on whether or not you can be competitive is fair or useful because judging a game on "will a really good player lose, with only free things, to a very average player using paid things" is far less useful than judging it on "will a really good player lose, with only free things, to another really good player with paid things" and how much time it takes for 2 really good players to be on even footing. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:18 hariooo wrote: Oh to be fair to Heroes, Abathur is one of the more innovative heroes in terms of the overall package of skills I've seen in the genre so I'll give them that. Eh. Looks similar to Empath from HoN | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Ok, we know your opinion and now we are moving on. | ||
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daxile
Canada829 Posts
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:39 Cheren wrote: For me, pay-to-win is where there are items/characters/etc. that give you power that can only be accessed with real money. LoL/Hearthstone/HotS are pay-to-grind-less. I don't think that the grinding IP for champions part of LoL is p2w, but the grinding IP for runes definitely gives you that kind of feeling :T | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On March 15 2014 06:42 synapse wrote: Any place to look up HOTS characters and skills and stuff? I don't think that the grinding IP for champions part of LoL is p2w, but the grinding IP for runes definitely gives you that kind of feeling :T Well you can't buy runes with real money, so that part is even more literally "pay-to-grind-less" (with IP boosts) than the champions. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
you either pay in time grinding or in money | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On March 15 2014 01:10 Plansix wrote: People have competitive Rock Paper Scissors matches and there is a whole meta game around that. The game will have a competitive following if people enjoy watching it. In high school i actually made money from Rock Paper Scissors matches lol. Don't know about meta, but it is psychological in some sense. | ||
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