I really like the idea of having shared XP. I've always found support roles to be really fun, and its nice that they get to remain relevant throughout the game while still focusing purely on support.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
I can safely say since I played the game at Blizzcon and this guy clearly didn't that nothing he says in this post is true.
If anything the game is MUCH more dynamic in the early game because your hero is so much stronger right out of the gate than he would be in a different moba.
3 abilities unlocked as opposed to 1, no items means there isn't an exponential increase in power as you level up rather a more linear one.
Right out the gate you're working with your team on the objectives and in keeping their experience gain down. There's no "I must level up before I can do anything" period like there is in other mobas.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
I'm glad we have members of this forum who are omniscient. I thought I was going to have to play the beta to learn the metagame.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying..
As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater..
I like the shared experience system as it'll make for a way more pleasant pubbing experience. Way too often--in MOBAs, you're fighting your team just as much as your opponents. My one concern is that zerging/blitzing lineups will be too unstoppable (5 man lanes).
The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights.
On November 10 2013 12:47 gravity wrote: Developer exhibition match from Blizzcon:
Looks very actiony, with a smaller map than Dota.
Most revealing video so far! Best quote "Uther walks away". I like the concept of having teams competing for certain objectives, with a tiny bit of strategy in terms of timings and choices. Look fun and manic. Can't wait to see more.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying..
As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater..
You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting.
You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point.
I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening.
On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote: The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights.
That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying..
As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater..
You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting.
You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point.
I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening.
Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added.
It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying..
As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater..
You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting.
You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point.
I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening.
Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added.
It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand.
There are actual objectives in DotA/LoL: Towers, Barracks/Inhibitors, Roshan/Baron+red&blue buff&dragon and of course every single creep which makes a lane an objective. An objective can also be to just force the opponent out of the lane so that he doesn't get gold and exp. If you're in a weaker lane, then your teammates should have a stronger lane and all you need to do is not fall too far behind or maybe swap lanes. Gold and exp play to different strengths and weaknesses of heroes and when you just have to stand in lane to get exp, then it's just teamfights. You win those and get the rewards of the objective which at this point all seem to destroy the opponents' towers for you. I think there will be basically a set amount of teamfights per map you have to win for the objectives and then standby while your rewards (the golems in the video and the pirate ship they mentioned) destroy the enemy base for you and here is the snowbally part. I prefer getting the money and destroying the buildings myself.
On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote: The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights.
That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges.
How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts.
On November 11 2013 06:24 Shiori wrote: It has the glamour that accompanies every Blizzard game. There are iconic characters, interesting level designs, and good voice acting. But the gameplay itself doesn't look that inspired or compelling. It's not so much that "different" is "bad" as it is that most of the differences I see here (versus games like LoL/DotA2, of course) seem to only exist for the sake of being different. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for a lot of these things. It's almost like they decided they wanted to make a snappy, faster MOBA, then brainstormed "what did Dota/LoL not do?" and went from there. To me, it just feels like they're innovating in reverse. You don't start by saying "we need to make a MOBA game now let's find some ways to innovate it so people buy it" (which is how this project felt to me from day one; again, my opinion only). You start by saying "here's a really awesome/innovative idea for a game! Let's make it!"
And while I'm not saying that HotS won't be innovative at all, it doesn't really seem like this game actually needs to exist. I mean, what is it trying to bring to the table that DotA/LoL haven't already provided? 20 minute games? Doing the opposite of DotA/LoL when it comes to last-hitting/items etc? My fundamental problem with HotS is and has always been that it just looks/seems/feels so disorganized. I can't tell what they're actually trying to do here, nor why we need another MOBA game when there are already two (fairly new and dramatically evolving) titans. In order for such a thing to make sense to me, there needs to be some real passion or focus behind the game. This just feels like Mario Party but with Blizzard characters, which, while fun, certainly, doesn't really excite me.
On November 11 2013 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just dont think that lasthitting is the skill factor in other mobas. I dont know about dota2, but in lol there is little to no difference between the different pros in lasthitting. The difference is trading in lane and i dont see why this doesnt apply to hots aswell.
I just think that people who think this game will take no skill at all are extremely close minded. The skill wont be lasthitting (lol as if lasthitting is interesting/hard to do) it will be teamfighting and the different strategies on these different maps. I am happy that there are no boring laning phases, cause they add nothing to the game in itself in my opinion.
It's about perfectly last hitting while also playing your lane properly, harassing, pulling back, and so on. It's like in Sc2: any reasonably competent player can get to a high level in Marine Split challenge if they grind it for a few hours, but the people who are considered micro gods are the ones who can do insane things on the spot, without preparation, without expecting anything, and without ignoring everything else going on in the game. Same thing applies to most stuff in Dota/LoL.
"and so on", i see.. You cant even name real differences cause they arent there, haha. They take lasthits away, yes, but what else is so more skillfull in other mobas? I dont see it, in hots you have to use different strategies based on the map (i think and guess thats the whole point here..), in lol and dota it is always the same map, i think that is more simple, no? As i said before, i see no reason why other mobas are so more skillfull, they just snowball harder and waste your time. (it is a pain in the ass to know the winner after 15 mins but have to play for another 15-30 mins cause the map is big) I think hots is way less snowbally and that alone is the reason why i look forwards to it and think it would be way more interesting to watch aswell
I really hope you're joking....
The laning phase is about using your skill to keep up farm, reduce opponent's farm, freeze the lane, and keep safely avoid ganks. Heroes will take away basically everything interesting about MOBA games before 30+ minutes - it's a total joke. Global exp, no items, no wards, and gimmick jungle + turret mechanics do not make a good game.
Global exp is ridiculous because suddenly ganks are useless before you get strong enough to take turrets - you don't slow down leveling, and there's no items so nothing else matters in the game. It will probably just be a farmfest for ~15 minutes and then everybody max levels at the same time and groups up and teamfights.
It's an entirely artificial game that just supports the same deathball disease that pervades sc2 toss. Any sort of risk is unnecessary because there are no mechanics outside of levels. The smartest way to play is to just afk farm a lane until you max and then group, yolo at the enemy, and whoever wins that fight wins the game. No reason on earth to leave lane except to take a merc camp, and, again, those are only useful if you're sure you can kill towers, which means that 2-3 enemy heroes have to be dead, which would only happen if the enemy team is stupid and decides to not afk farm->group.
You won't play unnecessarily 15 minutes after the winner is decided - you'll play 15 unnecessary minutes of farming and then have a teamfight and then the game will be over. There's no snowball period, which is absolutely stupid game design. No advantage to the winner of lane phase, because there is no winner, because creeps will inevitably die, and that means everyone gets experience even if they're dead and there's no items so someone on the enemy team being dead is worthless if the other 4 are alive.
As it is it's a waste of time. Should just be "here's a max level hero with a few customization options, teamfight and then take towers, glhf" if blizzard insists on no gold/items/global exp, because that's already the optimal way to play.
People like you are also a pain in the ass to argue with, cause they dont even have any clue about the subject, but think they do, thats pretty annoying..
As i said i dont know much about dota2, but in lol pretty much all the lanes are extremely stale if nobody ganks there. Competitive gaming will always be as safe as possible... Hots just doesnt care about this concept and tries to encourage teamfight based on different objectives on DIFFERENT maps. There is no point in "only farming" cause you dont get an advantage, you need to do the different quests on the maps to get closer to winning. And guess what, that exactly will encourage teamfights. If you think laning phase is interesting, well i just dont know.. If you had watched the games they played at blizzcon you would know that there is a lot of action and teamfights, cause the game is designed that way. Global experience allows blizzard to make heroes that wouldnt be viable in any other moba (for example no auto attacks), so i think they can add a variety of champs that you will never see in lol and maybe even in dota2. So yeah keep on hating and pretending you get what they do, but in reality you really dont, you are just a hater..
You just ignored half of his post, well done. We get it, you don't like laning, but that doesn't mean that there is no depth to it and thus interesting.
You were worried about snowballing. This game could actually snowball a lot harder than DotA and LoL, if your team dies while doing an objective, because obviously you're dead and the opponent gets the exp and objective. Though of course that is impossible to judge at this point.
I'm just not sure if this slugfest type of gameplay is going to be fun after a week or two. Their seems to be very little to think about. Maybe the fact that they've smartly given the mapmaking process to the community will help out. Too bad they didn't adopt this stance for SC2 and re-introduced Star Station when their was a map contest just happening.
Yeah so much depht in having the better hero for zoning and thus forcing a gank there, instead of fighting over actuall objectives. What exactly did i ignore? All he says is that he thinks this game will be about lvling to max and then push, there is literally nothing else this guy added.
It could be that this game snowballs, but no items are a big factor against snowballing. I think that is pretty easy to understand.
That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase.
While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game.
I'll reiterate why I think the global exp/no items is bad game design, because I didn't express myself well and I was upset at how dumb it sounded when I first read the whole global exp thing. GE/NI means advantages are either basically meaningless or too huge to overcome. Early teamwipes are going to be absolutely devastating, but late teamwipes will be essentially useless. After people max out on levels, teamfights gain you no advantage except tower kills - when the enemy team revives, you will be just as even as you were before the teamfight, except they have one-two less towers. Taking stone zealot gets you another tower or two. Hey look the other team is still max level, let's hope we don't mess up this teamfight because we don't actually have an advantage over them, but even if we do mess up we still have (x) towers left to try again.
It's my big problem with how this game sounds. It feels like it's just a gimmick to ensure no snowball unless it's a gigantic advantage (early teamwipe), backed up by arcade-y maps with more gimmicky objectives/maps to force teamfights. If they had just made a regular MOBA with this style of game as a different mode or something, that would've been neat, but this being the whole game just feels weak to me. It screams "WE NEED TO BE DIFFERENT SOMEHOW ADSFSKDFSDKF" instead of going for a solid basic design and then adding on nifty features on top of that.
On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote: The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights.
That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges.
How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts.
Without smoke, TP scrolls, and with the prevalence of wards (which is actually getting patched to make vision more limited and require more teamwork to obtain), LoL's early game is a lot less action-y then DotA. However, after a certain point it becomes a lot more teamfight than what i've seen of DotA - splitpush is limited to one lane and everyone else is usually grouped or close, and the gameplay is a lot more focused on taking towers, dragon, baron, getting vision etc.
You guys realize this game isn't even in BETA yet?
Just the fact that you guys are discussing it so viciously and comparing it to DotA and LoL when it's in pre-alpha is nothing but complimentary to the game.
Well, apparently people weren't happy with DotA 2 being developed and are already begging for DotA 3 with even newer and better graphics.
Hilarious that before Blizzcon everyone was saying MOBAs are done to death and you can't compete with LoL and DotA, and after Blizzcon everyone is whining that this game isn't another carbon-copy of every other MOBA.
On November 11 2013 07:41 ssxsilver wrote: The huge focus on PvE also worries me. Anyone else feel that the teamfights in the showmatch felt forced? Take the haunted mine map, it seems way more productive to get a bigger skull giant or more siege spawns than actually winning fights.
That would actually encourage you to take teamfights to get the minions. Dragon, Baron and jungle are no different in lol for example. You teamfight for the buffs/cash, which are at the end, in game advantadges.
How much of LoL is actual team-fighting though? I'm not a huge moba viewer by any means, but my impression of LoL is that it's a much, much slower paced game than DotA/HoN. The times I do catch a stream, it's like 20 minutes in and single digit kill counts.
Exactly the point. The reason is because everybody goes back to their lanes and have nothing better to do than farm and try to deny farm from your opponent between dragons (baron doesn´t show up until way later on). But once you reach that point later on, it is mostly teamfights. I think the plan for blizzard was just, skip the laning phase as much as possible, get into teamfights directly. Some people will dislike that, but i actually want to try it out.
While no items does prevent snowballing, global exp is essentially an extremely volatile mechanic to try and ensure there's no snowball. One or two kills won't mean anything as long as the other team can still farm, but, let's say you're 3 minutes in and you wipe the entire enemy team - suddenly you have 5 people farming exp compared to 0 (unless you just auto-get exp whenever enemy minions die, which would be even more awful), and it gives you a big advantage when the other team revives because they will be pretty far behind when they revive and then it should be simplicity to force them out of lane repeatedly and win the game.
I dont get why this is a point for you. This is exactly the same (but worse) in other mobas? If every hero on your team dies early, the enemy team can farm and gets xp, i dont get why you bring this up.
That's such a simplified view of laning/ganking..... so i'm just gonna stop arguing about it. Let's just say there's a lot more complexity then you seem to be aware of in lane/gank phase.
Well yeah i know that there is more to it, but its exactly the same in this game too i think. You wanna force them out, you just dont get an even bigger advantage for it (gold). Again, i dont get why you think this is better in other mobas?
I just think the laning itself for the sake of getting more farm and thus more items is not fun to watch. It is pretty much a mechanic to make the game longer. I cant believe there are people who actually enjoy the laning phase.
Well whatever i think hots could highlight the strenghts of mobas (teamfights imo) and weaken the boring part (laning imo), if they can achieve that i am happy
On November 11 2013 09:32 scBaldwin wrote: You guys realize this game isn't even in BETA yet?
Just the fact that you guys are discussing it so viciously and comparing it to DotA and LoL when it's in pre-alpha is nothing but complimentary to the game.
Everyone knows this... Beta will be in 2014. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing it till then. In fact I hope Blizzard takes some of the feed back of LoL/Dota players and creates a map/mode with more traditional gameplay, as I think many would be more interested in that.
EPT
