EPTHeroes Large General Thread - Page 446
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On June 22 2015 04:16 xDaunt wrote: At first glance, it seems like Vikings are being gutted. I find it particularly curious that Blizzard is nerfing Vikings late game teamfighting as opposed to the split laning, which was always the real problem. The cleanest solution would have been to increase the XP gain for killing a Viking, thereby allowing for more counterplay against split laning, and then rebalancing the Vikings around that. I dunno, I was watching Zuna's stream and he was basically arguing that Viking's power is how well they scale. Now granted I only played them once, but when I did I was really surprised how well they could team-fight even outside the boat. Spin to win and having 3 guys to surround (plus jump for immunity) makes a very effective gank mini-squad. Obviously soaking is a big advantage, but Vikings late game are always an asset in a fight, never a weak link (intuitively, you'd expect their late game to be somewhere between 3 Murkies and passable right?) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On June 22 2015 04:35 Wuster wrote: I dunno, I was watching Zuna's stream and he was basically arguing that Viking's power is how well they scale. Now granted I only played them once, but when I did I was really surprised how well they could team-fight even outside the boat. Spin to win and having 3 guys to surround (plus jump for immunity) makes a very effective gank mini-squad. Obviously soaking is a big advantage, but Vikings late game are always an asset in a fight, never a weak link (intuitively, you'd expect their late game to be somewhere between 3 Murkies and passable right?) I felt the same thing. On one hand I actually like that Blizzard managed to make them relatively easy to learn, so it's not only former Sc2/high level MOBA-players that can play them. But on the other hand, it also felt a bit dumb how insanely strong they were when you only used the "select all Vikings"-hotkey. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 22 2015 04:35 Wuster wrote: I dunno, I was watching Zuna's stream and he was basically arguing that Viking's power is how well they scale. Now granted I only played them once, but when I did I was really surprised how well they could team-fight even outside the boat. Spin to win and having 3 guys to surround (plus jump for immunity) makes a very effective gank mini-squad. Obviously soaking is a big advantage, but Vikings late game are always an asset in a fight, never a weak link (intuitively, you'd expect their late game to be somewhere between 3 Murkies and passable right?) I agree that they are strong teamfighting (and have commented as such). However, are they stronger at than other, premier, non-specialist heroes? Probably not. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
But the issue like I said is TLV had no real downside. They were strong early game with their soak, teamfight power spike at 10 and then once they got 16 they become insanely difficult to actually straight up kill. Then another teamfight spike at 20. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 22 2015 05:05 Tenks wrote: I guess TLV kind of depends on how you want to classify heroes. It seems like Blizzard prefers for Assassins to be more of the true carries where they get power spikes and then scale well into the late game. Specialists seem to prefer early game power. Right now it is kind of muddy if one person is an assassin or a specialist. But the issue like I said is TLV had no real downside. They were strong early game with their soak, teamfight power spike at 10 and then once they got 16 they become insanely difficult to actually straight up kill. Then another teamfight spike at 20. I wouldn't say that Vikings have no downside. They're basically unusable pre-7, bad at teamfighting pre-10, and don't get good until 16. At 20, they're definitely beastly with the upgraded longboat. I can't think of another hero that has a more uneven power curve. If Vikings aren't split laning pre-10, you're better off with another hero, which you won't see them very much on any map where there isn't an opportunity to safely soak. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On June 22 2015 05:22 xDaunt wrote: I wouldn't say that Vikings have no downside. They're basically unusable pre-7, bad at teamfighting pre-10, and don't get good until 16. At 20, they're definitely beastly with the upgraded longboat. I can't think of another hero that has a more uneven power curve. If Vikings aren't split laning pre-10, you're better off with another hero, which you won't see them very much on any map where there isn't an opportunity to safely soak. Unusable in a real fight pre-7? Yes. Can they still fill 2 lanes with 1 player? Yes. Their pre-7 power isn't with the actual hero but with some of the surrounding factors. So you can force a 4v3. Assume you get some push and gain an advantage on the objective. I know I don't need to tell you but the reason they're so good on Garden is the objective is static. If Cursed 100% always spawned south on the first objective they'd probably be equally strong there as well. I have actually started to learn TLV (before I saw they were getting taken to the woodshed) and I got a QM on Mines and dear lord are they terrible on that map, though | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 22 2015 05:30 Tenks wrote: Unusable in a real fight pre-7? Yes. Can they still fill 2 lanes with 1 player? Yes. Their pre-7 power isn't with the actual hero but with some of the surrounding factors. So you can force a 4v3. Assume you get some push and gain an advantage on the objective. I know I don't need to tell you but the reason they're so good on Garden is the objective is static. If Cursed 100% always spawned south on the first objective they'd probably be equally strong there as well. I have actually started to learn TLV (before I saw they were getting taken to the woodshed) and I got a QM on Mines and dear lord are they terrible on that map, though You don't need a static objective so much as you need time to split soak. The reason maps like Sky Temple, Garden, and Cursed Hollow are good for split soaking is that each map affords Viking players a solid opportunity to soak unmolested during the map objective phases. In contrast, maps like Dragon Shire, Tomb, and Blackheart's aren't good for split soaking because enemy heroes will always be rotating between lanes, making it very difficult to safely split soak. The problem with Haunted Mines is that the map objective is so damned powerful that you can't cede it to the enemy team, which manes that split soaking just isn't an option there. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And Imo it is because Garden lanes are so far apart so a single hero can't soak in 2 lanes + an objective that you can take with a single viking and tons of bushes at the lanes. Dragon and Mines have static objectives for example as well. | ||
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ETisME
12601 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
So it means they might be able to just run away, nullifying the blind, but it also means that if it's engagement time, you get rid off all autos for 1.5 sec, which is about 1-3 depending on attack speed, but generally the more dangerous right-clickers have higher auto speed. Right? | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On June 22 2015 10:16 [Phantom] wrote: It effectively reduces the number of autoatacks enemies miss from 2 to 1 because of the top of my head there are only 3 heroes that can atack twice in 1.5 seconds: Tychus, Thrall with windfury, and Arthas using frostmourne hunger. For every other hero its a nerf for Johanna. Valla? Illidan? Zeratul? Kerrigan? | ||
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Valiver
Caldeum1977 Posts
Their attack speeds are 1.67, 1.67, 1.11, 1.25 respectively. Sylvanas is also 1.67 and Falstad 1.43. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
The cooldown on attack is: 0.60s.......Sylv/Illi/Valla 0.70s.......Falstad 0.80s.......Kerrigan/Raynor/Tyrael/Tyrande/Zagara 0.90s.......Zeratul/Muradin 1.00s.......Arthas/Uther/Anub/Hammer/Tass/Nova (notice the numbers are prettier?) This means that all of the above can attack 2x per second: say Zeratul attacks at 0.0s, 0.9s, or at 0.4s ,1.5s. If the first attack lands after 0.41s, he's only get one in, since the next would land at 1.51s, after the blind has worn off. About half of the time, Zera will lose 1 auto, the other half 2 autos. Anything that increases his attack speed (there are a few) will increase the chance that 2 will be blocked. Anything under 1.5 cd (atk speed 0.75 or less) will sometimes miss twice. That's every hero in the game. Anything under 0.75s cd will always have 2 misses, and could have 3. That's anything with a listed attack speed of 1.5 or more. That's: Tychus, Sylvannas, Illidan, Valla, Falstad, Abathur (lol) Anything under 0.5s cd will always have 3 misses. No hero does that naturally. Do attack speed buffs get you there on any heroes? Probably Valla? With Rancor and Fury? Any number between those two will miss once sometimes, twice sometimes. Referencing the numbers above, and ignoring the rather important attack speed buffs that may apply to actual rightclick heroes (and, for that matter, ignoring imposing presence and the like... The average misses per hero is: (please check my math this is in my head and I'm a humanities guy) 2.33.......Sylv/Illi/Valla 2.13.....Falstad/Abathur 1.88.......Kerrigan/Raynor/Tyrael/Tyrande/Zagara 1.55.......Zeratul/Muradin 1.33.......Arthas/Uther/Anub/Hammer/Tass/Nova So that's a pretty significant nerf I guess, though could in theory turn out ahead for a handful of rightclick-buffed heroes. I don't have good numbers on Tychus, but I'm guessing this affects him most of all. What is the actual buff to his attack speed? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
(for the numbers I'd say Sylv has 2.5 average missed attacks in this calculation, assuming uniform distribution glare hits and she attacks somewhere between 0 and 0.6 secs for first time, thus 50-50 to miss 2 or 3 attacks). The biggest downfall however is that glare can be more easily counterplayed now, you just don't attack at all when you get hit. Before you were often effectively blinded for 4 secs because between moving, casting spells etc. you wouldn't attack more than twice in 4s anyway. And at worst someone was blinded for ~1 sec barring the extreme cases of bloodlust, abathur hat, tychus etc. So the new glare is a fair bit worse. Lili's blinding wind too i'd say but less so. I think full blind for 2s on shield glare and 2.5s on blinding wind for Lili would have been good numbers. Conceptually I do like the change though as it's cleaner. So many things changing attack speeds and happening on single attacks etc that it getś messy. I also like that the counterplay is clearer now, there is simply no point in attacking, it promotes better play. With most shields and preventing effects in this game just attacking through it is best often which doesn't really reward great play where people just instantly switch target or stop attacking through it. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
The sad part about this is that Lili will not have those grand escapes anymore. Also if they introduce more heroes with a blind mechanic, I guess the old system could become a problem. With the spell shield change and everything else, I would say they want to buff autoattackers vs spellcasters. Right now Johanna basically denies diving in hard and a spell shield is down before the blind is gone. That interaction will be changed if that goes live. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On June 22 2015 23:29 Tenks wrote: I think the issue with the old system is it was difficult to convey to the player "You're blind for 4 seconds OR if you attack two times." Blizzard really seems to dislike these situations where there is an either-or scenario because it is so hard to communicate. The new system is more streamlined and easier to communicate "Listen you aren't hitting auto attacks at all for this set duration of time." I think it's a good call of them. Especially with heroes like Tychus where 2 attacks is visibly hard to notice. They just need to up the numbers a bit i'd say to retain the old strength of these blinding spells. Johanna is finally getting some play and probably a decent hero afterall but this weakens her a bit much I think, especially as the cone of glare fits more with using it when leading into a fight instead of being right in the middle of it like Lili's. | ||
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