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ETisME
12715 Posts
In dota you have to do objectives with less clear outcome and therefore you even need to consider the path from your objective to the next will cost how much time and exp. And you have to choose whether you do objectives in solo or team. There is also more flexibilty with dota because how heros can "evolve" with items and skill combined. An earth shaker with blink dagger is completely different than one without. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On January 29 2015 15:15 Wuster wrote: Have they said that? I've played plenty of games that went 30+ minutes and not for dumb reasons like we only had tanks so team fights took forever. yup they explicitly stated that: http://heroes-live.com/content/shorter-games-heroes-storm | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
Rotations to gank, merc, take objectives and to soak exp are unarguably more complex in this game. You can't be for real. Ganks in Dota are way more unpredictable just based on the smiple fact that map is bigger, smoke's exists, there are wards you need to take account into. And since carries actually need to farm to be relevant late ganks do exist thru whole game instead of well, we are 10 laning over, time to 5 man,. Objectives? We can argue what is more complex, securing the ancient stack we have been making for our carry or collecting skulls in mines that auto spawn since blizz designed it to be that way. I don't know whats complex about mercs, but ok! Soak exp, well, again, what? So yeah, unarguably! Anything that exists in this game is more advanced in Dota, and it's not bad, it's just different. The moment you realize you can like game thats easier and simplier without having to put theories of doom while trying to prove otherway world will be a better place. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On January 29 2015 15:31 ref4 wrote: yup they explicitly stated that: http://heroes-live.com/content/shorter-games-heroes-storm Big difference between 'average' and 'no longer than'. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On January 29 2015 15:26 ETisME wrote: I believe there is less depth in hots exactly is because the objectives are much more clear than it is for dota. In dota you have to do objectives with less clear outcome and therefore you even need to consider the path from your objective to the next will cost how much time and exp. And you have to choose whether you do objectives in solo or team. There is also more flexibilty with dota because how heros can "evolve" with items and skill combined. An earth shaker with blink dagger is completely different than one without. Honestly, Blink Dagger isn't so much a choice on Earthshaker as a break point, no different than ETC getting Bolt at lvl 20 and suddenly becoming an excellent initiator. As you learn more about DotA, it starts to get significantly less complex because 90% of items are horrible on any given hero, and there are only 3-4 viable builds tops...just like HotS. What makes DotA so much more complex is the variability of roles and the number of ways you can interact with the world. Creep pulling/stacking is utterly unintiutive and you'd never know it was possible unless someone told you (or you were familiar with the original build of the custom map from WC3 and its archaic AI), jungling in general is a thing that can happen, trilaning is a thing that can happen, tricore is a thing that can happen, experience management and gold management among the team is a thing, etc. Once you know how DotA works and how each hero fits into the metagame, it's not drastically more complex. Honestly, every given HotS game is really just a microcosm of every DotA game on an accelerated timescale with all the bullshit cut out. Complexity for complexity's sake isn't always a good thing. If you can simplify something while sacrificing a minimal amount of depth, you probably should. That's not to say that the slash and burn method employed by HotS is necessarily better than DotA in every way, but it definitely makes some improvements. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
On Sky Temple, pre-10, you want to soak all lanes but you also want presence and control in the relevant areas before temple spawns. So, you start 3-1-1 to control top lane and top vision. But, since you want to push mid and bottom lanes back faster so that the heroes in those lanes can rotate to temples faster without losing exp from a creep wave you need to put stronger laners in those lanes. Or, you draft heroes with mobility like Falstad or Brightwing to offset travel time. During first temples, you have to gauge how to split and rotate accordingly between shrines. Then, you have to shift your focus down in preparation for bottom temple and stack bottom lane because of how hard bottom temple is to attack into. You are managing these rotations all while trying to fit in well timed mercs that will push lanes while you are fighting at temples, guarding against bribery shenanigans, and possibly having to deal with gank heavy comps. You also have to shot call decisions like abandoning a shrine you can't contest in favor of soaking to minimize losses. I would say there is more depth there than in LoL or DotA where you are just farming in the early game. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
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Valiver
Caldeum1977 Posts
Also comparing sky temple early game rotations and strategies to dota lane farming is such a bad comparison. The lane phases in lol and dota are not in hots at all, so they are in fact more complex, since they don't exist in hots. The sky temple comparison would be compared more along the lines of baron/roshan timings or something. | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
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ETisME
12715 Posts
On January 29 2015 16:27 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, Blink Dagger isn't so much a choice on Earthshaker as a break point, no different than ETC getting Bolt at lvl 20 and suddenly becoming an excellent initiator. As you learn more about DotA, it starts to get significantly less complex because 90% of items are horrible on any given hero, and there are only 3-4 viable builds tops...just like HotS. What makes DotA so much more complex is the variability of roles and the number of ways you can interact with the world. Creep pulling/stacking is utterly unintiutive and you'd never know it was possible unless someone told you (or you were familiar with the original build of the custom map from WC3 and its archaic AI), jungling in general is a thing that can happen, trilaning is a thing that can happen, tricore is a thing that can happen, experience management and gold management among the team is a thing, etc. Once you know how DotA works and how each hero fits into the metagame, it's not drastically more complex. Honestly, every given HotS game is really just a microcosm of every DotA game on an accelerated timescale with all the bullshit cut out. Complexity for complexity's sake isn't always a good thing. If you can simplify something while sacrificing a minimal amount of depth, you probably should. That's not to say that the slash and burn method employed by HotS is necessarily better than DotA in every way, but it definitely makes some improvements. Well yes you are right but there is still more depth and it isn't so bullshit. it affects how the other team engage a es with or without blink dagger and how to slow his gold gain for example. Solo gold and experience adds to this. Of cause these are more or less standard to do once you get to top level but it is still something that adds to the depth because you have 10 heroes total and each have their own item build path, slowing down one hero may cost too much exp and gold that puts your whole team behind for example. Another example would be your item choice under certain situations, I am not talking about top item optimized items builds based on hero picks but how to build your items up according to the situations. But heroes is meant to be less complex and for some the things they take out is fine. I only dislike the fact that the game is too team based and lacking in individual skill. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On January 29 2015 17:11 ref4 wrote: dono why y'all are getting so offended that HOTS is less complex than DOTA2, LoL is way less complex and 10X more successful than DOTA2, maybe HOTS will be too (highly doubt it since they're competing vs. LoL) league has 10x times more dynamic and better combat than dota 2 tho | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On January 29 2015 20:01 kongoline wrote: league has 10x times more dynamic and better combat than dota 2 tho you mean spammy abilities that do no damage? | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
no thats hots | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10884 Posts
That was exactly the feeling i had with Lol (well, only played it a bit before Dota 2 Beta... So maybe things changed a bit) and Hots felt exactly like that... Everyone just constantly throws shit around and tries to hit for tiny dmg except when he lands a full Combo... Dota is more about "when" to use your stuff because its pretty likely you won't use a spell more than 1-2 times in a battle. I like the Dota way better, but i can see the appeal the "Lol/Hots-Way" has. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10142 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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