|
|
On January 28 2015 23:46 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 17:57 Narw wrote:
Multishot build seems safest way to play Valla, ult depends on sitiuation - they have few interupts and you have healer that can back you up - Strafe, if they have heroes that desperatly need to be stuned/interupted take Vengance. You want to take spellshield if vs heavy nuke heroes (Nova for example).
Don't go for "autoattack builds" unless you know what you are doing couse more often than not you will end up being completly useless.
Thanks it's been working well, talent gating is frustrating though, i hate having to "waste" games by going suboptimal builds. Other than that the game is starting to grow on me, i can't justify spending the time for a dota game anymore so this is a good replacement. It's kind of hard to learn while playing though, most of the time i get bursted / cced by some spells and i would like to know what killed me but as far as i know it's impossible to do it during the game. When i learned dota2 i pretty much learned everything while playing, by reading the tooltips of the spells that killed me or by clicking on ennemy heroes and reading what their abilities did ... i think it's really a shame that you can't do that in league and hots, it really makes learning the game a much smoother experience.
because you can't select and view other heroes in LoL or HoTS which is Riot and BLizzard's way of "reducing burden of knowledge" so players don't get confused by accidentally selecting the enemy or some shit like that
|
On January 29 2015 06:42 hariooo wrote:
I wonder if it's a priority for them to improve the micro in this game.
Lost Vikings are coming
|
On January 29 2015 07:30 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 23:46 Jetaap wrote:On January 28 2015 17:57 Narw wrote:
Multishot build seems safest way to play Valla, ult depends on sitiuation - they have few interupts and you have healer that can back you up - Strafe, if they have heroes that desperatly need to be stuned/interupted take Vengance. You want to take spellshield if vs heavy nuke heroes (Nova for example).
Don't go for "autoattack builds" unless you know what you are doing couse more often than not you will end up being completly useless.
Thanks it's been working well, talent gating is frustrating though, i hate having to "waste" games by going suboptimal builds. Other than that the game is starting to grow on me, i can't justify spending the time for a dota game anymore so this is a good replacement. It's kind of hard to learn while playing though, most of the time i get bursted / cced by some spells and i would like to know what killed me but as far as i know it's impossible to do it during the game. When i learned dota2 i pretty much learned everything while playing, by reading the tooltips of the spells that killed me or by clicking on ennemy heroes and reading what their abilities did ... i think it's really a shame that you can't do that in league and hots, it really makes learning the game a much smoother experience. because you can't select and view other heroes in LoL or HoTS which is Riot and BLizzard's way of "reducing burden of knowledge" so players don't get confused by accidentally selecting the enemy or some shit like that
It is actually very counter intuitive to make the controls in a game where you only play 1 person the same as RTS army controls, THIS is why the other games dont have that.
Dota comes from the WC3 engine, so thats why it works that way.
I think league has a death recap where you can see the skills and tips on what to do?
My mind might be wrong, its been a long time since i wondered why i died (its always my stupidity).
|
On January 29 2015 09:32 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 07:30 ref4 wrote:On January 28 2015 23:46 Jetaap wrote:On January 28 2015 17:57 Narw wrote:
Multishot build seems safest way to play Valla, ult depends on sitiuation - they have few interupts and you have healer that can back you up - Strafe, if they have heroes that desperatly need to be stuned/interupted take Vengance. You want to take spellshield if vs heavy nuke heroes (Nova for example).
Don't go for "autoattack builds" unless you know what you are doing couse more often than not you will end up being completly useless.
Thanks it's been working well, talent gating is frustrating though, i hate having to "waste" games by going suboptimal builds. Other than that the game is starting to grow on me, i can't justify spending the time for a dota game anymore so this is a good replacement. It's kind of hard to learn while playing though, most of the time i get bursted / cced by some spells and i would like to know what killed me but as far as i know it's impossible to do it during the game. When i learned dota2 i pretty much learned everything while playing, by reading the tooltips of the spells that killed me or by clicking on ennemy heroes and reading what their abilities did ... i think it's really a shame that you can't do that in league and hots, it really makes learning the game a much smoother experience. because you can't select and view other heroes in LoL or HoTS which is Riot and BLizzard's way of "reducing burden of knowledge" so players don't get confused by accidentally selecting the enemy or some shit like that It is actually very counter intuitive to make the controls in a game where you only play 1 person the same as RTS army controls, THIS is why the other games dont have that. Dota comes from the WC3 engine, so thats why it works that way. I think league has a death recap where you can see the skills and tips on what to do? My mind might be wrong, its been a long time since i wondered why i died (its always my stupidity).
HoTS comes from the SC2 engine.....
anyway my bottom line is the more information in-game the better. there should be a noob-mode box where you can check so that you can only select your hero to help the real beginners.
|
What do people think the competitive potential for this game is? Figure it will end up developing a scene despite being a bit more casual?
|
Competitive scene is only going to work by building strong personalities and teams. The game lacks too much depth otherwise. I mean, of course there's going to be a competitive scene because the game will have quite a big playerbase, since it is the only MOBA that is actually fun to play. But it'll have to develope something unique to attract a big viewer base.
|
On January 29 2015 10:19 TigerKarl wrote:
Competitive scene is only going to work by building strong personalities and teams. The game lacks too much depth otherwise. I mean, of course there's going to be a competitive scene because the game will have quite a big playerbase, since it is the only MOBA that is actually fun to play. But it'll have to develope something unique to attract a big viewer base.
Games are pretty cool to watch
|
8748 Posts
On January 29 2015 09:32 LaNague wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 07:30 ref4 wrote:On January 28 2015 23:46 Jetaap wrote:On January 28 2015 17:57 Narw wrote:
Multishot build seems safest way to play Valla, ult depends on sitiuation - they have few interupts and you have healer that can back you up - Strafe, if they have heroes that desperatly need to be stuned/interupted take Vengance. You want to take spellshield if vs heavy nuke heroes (Nova for example).
Don't go for "autoattack builds" unless you know what you are doing couse more often than not you will end up being completly useless.
Thanks it's been working well, talent gating is frustrating though, i hate having to "waste" games by going suboptimal builds. Other than that the game is starting to grow on me, i can't justify spending the time for a dota game anymore so this is a good replacement. It's kind of hard to learn while playing though, most of the time i get bursted / cced by some spells and i would like to know what killed me but as far as i know it's impossible to do it during the game. When i learned dota2 i pretty much learned everything while playing, by reading the tooltips of the spells that killed me or by clicking on ennemy heroes and reading what their abilities did ... i think it's really a shame that you can't do that in league and hots, it really makes learning the game a much smoother experience. because you can't select and view other heroes in LoL or HoTS which is Riot and BLizzard's way of "reducing burden of knowledge" so players don't get confused by accidentally selecting the enemy or some shit like that It is actually very counter intuitive to make the controls in a game where you only play 1 person the same as RTS army controls, THIS is why the other games dont have that. Dota comes from the WC3 engine, so thats why it works that way. I think league has a death recap where you can see the skills and tips on what to do? My mind might be wrong, its been a long time since i wondered why i died (its always my stupidity).
Yeah other games have death recaps, and actually I think I read that WoW is going to have a death recap built into the default UI soon. I'm certainly missing a death recap in Heroes, as well as the ability to select units to see their stats (which used to be in the game). As usual, these things could be implemented but disabled by default as a compromise between Blizzard's direction and the players who prefer the "information overload." I'd guess it's a matter of making its way up the priority list.
|
Mexico2170 Posts
The bullshit "the game lacks depth" argument drives me mad. Soccer, the most pouplar sport in the world is the one with less depth when compared to fotball, baseball and basketball (not talking about skill, but depth and rules and etc) and that didn't stop it.
That didnt stop hearthtone. That didn't stop Lol for being the most popular game even when it was a "dumbed down" version of dota.
Depth doesn't matter, the only things that matter are: Is it fun to watch? And the playerbase.
|
I don't even think the game lacks depth and don't really understand why people say it.
|
Couse if you did play Dota (prolly same with LoL, but i can't talk about that since i have no expieriance there) before and come into this then there is distinct lack of depth in gameplay/strategy/heroes diversity i would say. It's fun to play, couse constant action due to how maps/objectives are constructed is appealing, but watching just seems so one dimensional.
|
Except there isn't a distinct lack of depth in gameplay/strategy and of course hero diversity is low now. The game has 30 some heroes. I'd say it's pretty good that maybe around 20 of them see competitive play.
|
You see, you ask for explaination why some people find it lacking some stuff, i give you answer, i base it on my expierience in other title, and it's to be fair quite common oppinion, thats why you see it appearing here i would say. And then you come with NO ITS NOT LIKE THAT. Well, ok!
|
I'm asking the question because I want an answer and you haven't given one yet. So what if you are coming from DotA or LoL? Does that make you blind to the depth in another, different game? I come from different games with subjectively more depth and I don't fail to see the depth in HotS. You say there is a distinct lack of depth in gameplay / strategy, how?
|
I'm comparing depth to game in same genre, so its Dota for me since i have played it. And it's different in the sense that it's way simplier and easier to get into and play without having to worry too much about anything else than teamfight/objectives. And there is nothing bad in it, it's their design choice that makes it work the way it works right now. But it also makes the game lacking in the deparments i wrote about. Viable talent choices are extremly limited, strategies that diverse from the "you want to teamfight now couse you know objectives" got already patched (core buffs, abathur/asmo "i backdoor ya"). It's nothing wrong in it, couse like i wrote about it earlier its their choice to appeal to playerbase. If they tried to make game with same depth as Dota they would simply fail at start, couse it would be simply worse due to fact how long other titles are in development. But this also leads to the the limitations gameplay/strategy wise. This also makes me unable to enjoy watching any streams (lack of streamers with any kind of personality dosn't help).
|
Mexico2170 Posts
Well, Dota 2 surely is more complex in the sense that there are more items than talents, and they are much less straight forward i think. Last hitting i wouldn't call it complext, its jsut something that you do i guess, but denaying, altough similar, i can see how it does adds depth.
Most heroes are pretty different, i cant think of one that plays the same as the other? Also specialist are also pretty cool, in dota 2/lol you won't ever see a hero like abathur cause it just cant exist on that game.
However, i agree in the part that hots is kind of less complex (altough it has more complexity that some people give it credit for, but it jsut located in other areas), but i don't think that will be a problem when deciding if it gets succesful as an esport or not.
|
Yeah, i dont see how dota 2 is more in depth than heroes. probably even less. i played dota 2 since beta, clocked around 3k hours... and yeah.
i think there is a misconception about depth in dota 2. I'm thinking people think depth is some sort of extreme stategy/meta gaming with a bunch of combinations of results in gameplay depending on what you do. I think most of it in dota is actually just slavework. and that slavework rewards you and lets you show off to others, essentially creating a competitive scene about trolling or showing off and not actually in strategy, sadly. Really hoping this game doesnt devolve into that pile of mess. If blizzard removed the team level, this game will be so much popular, and people will say this game will have such great depth!!! because you can show off, isolate yourself from everyone, and advertise how big you are. you got more maps, you got more skills/item choices(lets be real, dota has the same build/item choices every day all day), more mechanics, but cant carry anything and thats where heroes falls off. Because it has more game than other mobas, it fails in the solo experience. i for one am tired of farming/jungling/ to carry the crap out of my team mates. I'm tired of farming in general. played minecraft and dota, essentially the same philosophy. a very popular one I believe, but... I'm getting old and dont got time for slavery
40+mins per game, farming
|
On January 29 2015 13:59 Lokian wrote:
Yeah, i dont see how dota 2 is more in depth than heroes. probably even less. i played dota 2 since beta, clocked around 3k hours... and yeah.
i think there is a misconception about depth in dota 2. I'm thinking people think depth is some sort of extreme stategy/meta gaming with a bunch of combinations of results in gameplay depending on what you do. I think most of it in dota is actually just slavework. and that slavework rewards you and lets you show off to others, essentially creating a competitive scene about trolling or showing off and not actually in strategy, sadly. Really hoping this game doesnt devolve into that pile of mess. If blizzard removed the team level, this game will be so much popular, and people will say this game will have such great depth!!! because you can show off, isolate yourself from everyone, and advertise how big you are. you got more maps, you got more skills/item choices(lets be real, dota has the same build/item choices every day all day), more mechanics, but cant carry anything and thats where heroes falls off. Because it has more game than other mobas, it fails in the solo experience. i for one am tired of farming/jungling/ to carry the crap out of my team mates. I'm tired of farming in general. played minecraft and dota, essentially the same philosophy. a very popular one I believe, but... I'm getting old and dont got time for slavery
40+mins per game, farming
some DOTA2 games can be very short. In fact right now the DAC (DOTA2 Asia Championship) MVP.Phoneix vs. Newbee game that just finished now was 25 minutes when gg was called. And I can list off a lot of short competitive games from various tournaments, and of course there were obviously a lot of 60 minutes + games which DOTA2 is famous/infamous for.
Bottomline:
Not every DOTA game is 40+ minutes. It is all draft-dependent and not artificially kept at a set amount of time by the game developer unlike HOTS, where Blizzard explicitly stated that they will do everything they can to keep games no longer than 20 minutes in order to attract the most players.
|
Have they said that? I've played plenty of games that went 30+ minutes and not for dumb reasons like we only had tanks so team fights took forever.
|
How does a game being easier to pick up and play make it less deep? It's also a massive simplification to assume you don't need to worry about anything but team fights / objectives.
This sounds exactly like what I was criticizing with my initial question. People have preconceptions about this game that cloud their vision and lead them to conclusions that are wrong. They think they have answers that they don't.
Yea, if you just want to pick the game up, pick a hero you like, and play them in a laid-back co-op or quick match, then it's a pretty casual experience. That's not a statement on the depth the game has at all. You have to look at the level of play where depth becomes necessary.
While the competitive scene is in its infancy, the depth and strategy are still obvious. You have obvious strategic decisions happening in the drafting phase with bans, picks, counter-picks and denial picks. This is all under the obvious strategic considerations for the map. In the actual game, you have the general map strategies and the ideas of the picks coming to fruition during all phases of the game. Yes, it's about objectives. Yes, it's about team fights. Having a direction doesn't limit the depth. Rotations to gank, merc, take objectives and to soak exp are unarguably more complex in this game. You have wombo-combo and cheesy comps, you have roaming comps, you have comps that are strong in the early game, comps that are strong in the late game. You have comps that are built for sustain, comps that are built to dive and burst. There is plenty of depth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
