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On January 28 2015 02:56 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 02:36 Tenks wrote:
I think in the current meta BW is a pretty common ban in competitive Only on tournaments. But that depends a lot on the team and maps themselves. But hero league doesn't have a ban system, which in my opinion, should be there. The excuse about "not enough heroes" is just complete bullshit.
I'm still on the fence about the bans. It would be nice on one hand since it seems like Stitches is 100% picked in all games. So that gets a bit stale. But most players in ranked league are really only comfortable with a handful of heroes that removing away from that shallow pool may be a bit much. I've had quite a few games with BW completely absent. Mainly because I didn't pick BW  Having a game with Stitches being absent seems non-existant these days. Then again everyone plays Pudge (poorly) in DOTA so I think hook heroes just tend to get fans.
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During the last tournaments I watched the most common bans were actually Zeratul, Kerrigan, Illidan, Arthas and Stitches, I don't recall a single Brightwing ban. I was wondering about that myself but I guess it's to break certain team fight combos. Melee Assassins are pretty common picks and I saw mostly Zeratul, Thrall 2nd and Illidan as a close third.
Setup looked mostly like this if I recall correctly.
1x Support
1x Ranged Assassin
1x Tank
1x Melee Assassin or Specialist
2nd Ranged Assassin / 2nd Support / 2nd Tank
Also tournaments have a slightly different meta because Tychus is still banned and with Falstad being nerfed Valla is the only top tier pick for ranged assassins.
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Were you watching an EU or NA tournament? I've heard their bans are different where EU teams tend to ban out assassins and NA teams tend to ban out support. I know in the finals of Kings BW was banned 2/3 of the games. I didn't watch anything but the finals, though.
I also think melee assassins in general are more common on EU. I know Illidan is very highly valued in the EU scene but it is neither picked or banned often in NA.
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I mostly watch Khaldor (EU) but also some US stuff, but I might not remember the US stuff as well so you are probably right. I think we will see different setups once Tychus returns. On hero league he is pretty much a 100% pick.
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Luckily Blizz said Stitches is getting tuned down but I'm not sure why we haven't heard the same for Tychus. Honestly it would go a long way just removing stoneskin or FA from his kit. I get that they want him to be a tanky assassin (afaik the only assassin with FA/Stone/Relentless) but having effectively three life bars is a tad much.
Or maybe just tone down his grenade scaling. 60+25/lvl is pretty insane when you get to 20 and you are hitting for 560 per target and with Melting Point doing over 1k to structure per lob.
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On January 28 2015 02:08 Tenks wrote:
My point is if Thrall is so incredibly broken like this thread seems to think he is (and which I disagree) why isn't he an immediate pick/ban in competitive games? The fact of the matter is Thrall has some huge upside but also some huge downside. Probably the only hero which can create those YouTube highlight reels of idiots walking in 1-by-1 to engage him or ranged DPS thinking they can stand toe-to-toe with him and dying a horrible death while Thrall gains HP in the process. But the fact of the matter is if the team goes on Thrall when he presents himself for burst he dies. Basically right away. The CC is really just gravy to make sure his WF doesn't proc off and you can keep him from really doing any damage. I don't understand this argument of "You have to deal with Thrall appropriately and that means he is broken" as an argument. As Brightwing I'm generally the #1 target as well and if I'm left uncontested we can generally win a team fight as well. Maybe not in such an obvious fashion as Thrall but we'll still win.
Good Thralls don't just run in. A proper team setup/initiation lets him get into melee very quickly. Uther is his best friend, with an early game stun, AoE ult stun, and Cleanse that let Thrall run wild. The reason why he's not picked in competitive is twofold:
1) Competitive teams suck right now. There's not enough people and not enough time to make them anywhere near as good as DotA, LoL, HoN, or Smite teams that have had multiple years, many coaches, and much history to base their strategies and skill on. No doubt they tried Thrall, played him the same way they play him in solo queue, failed a couple of games, then never tried him again. Plus, why try to make a fringe hero work when there's already 12 heroes that are virtually instapicks that everyone knows how to play with and against?
2) The metagame right now is hostile to Thrall. Brightwing is #1 support pick and she is very good against Thrall. A lot of the common assassins with high mobility skills (Valla, Falstad, etc.) have an easier time dealing with Thrall, and, as mentioned above, the ultra common picks right now are more comfortable for current pros. He's not easy to use well, so players default to the common picks and ignore Thrall.
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So your argument now is that this thread has some strategies and knowledge that the people who play the game 8-10 hours a day do not have? I mean I'm not calling people out here but I've played with and against both you and Daunt and against some of the C9/EG/G! people and while you guys are better than the average player there is no comparison against the teamed guys. I feel if Thrall was on the ascended plane of imbalance he would find his way into the team comps.
I don't even really have a horse in this fight. I suck as melee assassins so I don't play him outside of Quick Match and I have a pretty easy time dealing with Thrall in most ranked games. Really the only problem I have is when my team mates are unaware of the burst pain Thrall can dish out and decide to not kite him and get blown up. Maybe I just haven't played against these really fantastic Thrall players so I'm just uninformed about how good he actually is. I also don't really watch the EU scene so maybe he's more prolific over there.
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On January 28 2015 03:57 Tenks wrote:
So your argument now is that this thread has some strategies and knowledge that the people who play the game 8-10 hours a day do not have? I mean I'm not calling people out here but I've played with and against both you and Daunt and against some of the C9/EG/G! people and while you guys are better than the average player there is no comparison against the teamed guys. I feel if Thrall was on the ascended plane of imbalance he would find his way into the team comps.
I don't think anyone is claiming he's on an ascended plane of uber imbalance. There is no such thing as true balance in Dota/LoL anyways. All we're saying (or maybe it's just me but w/e) is that Thrall is dominating solo/duo/pugs. he's winning more than losing. Why is it easy to see that BW/uther wins more games and is obviously really strong picks, but Thrall is just casted aside as some crap hero that wins?? Also I think you give pros too much credit in a game so young, and even younger hero that wasn't even out a month. I'll say it again, Thrall may explode in pro scenes, OR he can die as a crap hero because it's easy to coordinate a team around him. It's easy to theorycraft the latter, but since I don't have a 5man every time I play Thrall I don't really get to test that.
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On January 28 2015 03:57 Tenks wrote:
So your argument now is that this thread has some strategies and knowledge that the people who play the game 8-10 hours a day do not have? I mean I'm not calling people out here but I've played with and against both you and Daunt and against some of the C9/EG/G! people and while you guys are better than the average player there is no comparison against the teamed guys. I feel if Thrall was on the ascended plane of imbalance he would find his way into the team comps.
I don't even really have a horse in this fight. I suck as melee assassins so I don't play him outside of Quick Match and I have a pretty easy time dealing with Thrall in most ranked games. Really the only problem I have is when my team mates are unaware of the burst pain Thrall can dish out and decide to not kite him and get blown up. Maybe I just haven't played against these really fantastic Thrall players so I'm just uninformed about how good he actually is. I also don't really watch the EU scene so maybe he's more prolific over there.
Nope, I'm arguing that it's not possible for teams to have fully evaluated the entire metagame, much less a hero that's been out for less than a month. Saying, "He's not played competitively," is in no way a dispositive judgment on how good the hero is. The game is still incredibly young relative to the field and I remain unconvinced it's "solved" or even in a super stable metagame. It doesn't preclude all balance talk, but no pro can make a blanket statement any more than I can. Their input is obviously more valuable if they've spent more time playing with/against the hero than I have (and given I haven't been able to play HotS lately due to internet issues, that's pretty much all of them). All I'm saying is that the scene is too young to treat anyone like an authority, it's still wide open.
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On January 28 2015 03:32 Hildegard wrote:
I mostly watch Khaldor (EU) but also some US stuff, but I might not remember the US stuff as well so you are probably right. I think we will see different setups once Tychus returns. On hero league he is pretty much a 100% pick.
Speaking of different scenes I tuned into a Chinese stream over the weekend and the way they played Haunted Mines was to win mines, but leave a few skulls and party push / team fight until they were almost to core and *then* cap skulls to spawn the first golem to seal the deal. Is that a China-specific thing or have I been playing Haunted Mines wrong this entire time?
On January 28 2015 04:25 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 03:57 Tenks wrote:
So your argument now is that this thread has some strategies and knowledge that the people who play the game 8-10 hours a day do not have? I mean I'm not calling people out here but I've played with and against both you and Daunt and against some of the C9/EG/G! people and while you guys are better than the average player there is no comparison against the teamed guys. I feel if Thrall was on the ascended plane of imbalance he would find his way into the team comps.
I don't even really have a horse in this fight. I suck as melee assassins so I don't play him outside of Quick Match and I have a pretty easy time dealing with Thrall in most ranked games. Really the only problem I have is when my team mates are unaware of the burst pain Thrall can dish out and decide to not kite him and get blown up. Maybe I just haven't played against these really fantastic Thrall players so I'm just uninformed about how good he actually is. I also don't really watch the EU scene so maybe he's more prolific over there. Nope, I'm arguing that it's not possible for teams to have fully evaluated the entire metagame, much less a hero that's been out for less than a month. Saying, "He's not played competitively," is in no way a dispositive judgment on how good the hero is. The game is still incredibly young relative to the field and I remain unconvinced it's "solved" or even in a super stable metagame. It doesn't preclude all balance talk, but no pro can make a blanket statement any more than I can. Their input is obviously more valuable if they've spent more time playing with/against the hero than I have (and given I haven't been able to play HotS lately due to internet issues, that's pretty much all of them). All I'm saying is that the scene is too young to treat anyone like an authority, it's still wide open.
But the 'game is young' argument cuts both ways, so many people in the thread are calling to nerf Thrall in this or that area, or anoint him God Tier and when people say the pro's disagree they argue - game is young they haven't figure out how good he is yet. BTW, we're talking about a pro scene that uses Jaina in a tournament finals so it's a bit naive to argue they only stick with the conventional wisdom.
So yes, the game is young, maybe the rest of us haven't figured out an effective way to deal with Thrall yet? Personally he's been a much smaller problem in my games this week compared to last week (for the record Gold / Plat on hotslog here).
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I haven't seen it with the first golem but I've seen teams with the advantage delay the golem by leaving some skulls in the mines. I guess if you pretty much get a 100 golem (lets say 98 capped) off the bat it would be smart to delay it to get a stronger golem later if you can take the set of keeps and just end with it. An early 100 golem isn't as strong as a later 100 golem.
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No one said anything about nerfing Thrall, and tier lists aren't entirely useful beyond knowing what pros are playing (only useful for highest level of play).
Strong/OP/godtier whatever you wanna call it, it's not an absolute value you can assign to a hero. It's relative to all the variables in the game, be it player skill, meta, hero comps, maps, etc. RIGHT NOW, within the first 3 weeks since released, Thrall brought something new to the game and is dominating. He is winning games. 1 year later, he can be shit, okay, or first pick/ban. Maybe pugs will figure him out, or maybe his mechanics are too complicated for the average player. This is what makes him strong RIGHT NOW (in pubs).
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Dominating?
Thrall is not even as popular as Tychus, BW, Arthas... and for assassins Valla and Zeratul are more common.
At least in EU tournaments.
Maybe he is a pubs stomper? Sort of? But he can be bursted down, if i have to bet on an outcome i expect him to get weaker as people learn to deal with him instead of stronger because people learn how to play him.
I agree he is good but IMO its just yet another strong hero, but its just that he is new while Tychus and Arthas are not.
edit: im talking about popularity in pro teams picks. But lots of people have him regadless of the price, the hype was real.
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Popularity is hard to compare in this game when its locked behind 10$/15k gold.
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Thrall is like a second/third pick level champ in NA right now. He's got a lot of good 1v1 lane matchups but also very prone to getting ganked since he bullies with chain lightning (dragon shire!!). At the moment it seems like you really need a reason to pick him (dependant on team comps). Also super prone to getting cc locked and blown up against comps with Uther.
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He is at a 55% w/l rate on hotslogs which I don't feel is completely out of line but it does put him top5. But as Sushiko said being behind a big paywall right now could influence a few things. Like maybe players who have the gold or are willing to pay for Thrall are more dedicated and better than the average player they're beating in QM/ranked? Similar to everytime a hero becomes F2P their w/l rate always drops because now every noob with access is playing them.
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On January 28 2015 03:32 Hildegard wrote:
I mostly watch Khaldor (EU) but also some US stuff, but I might not remember the US stuff as well so you are probably right. I think we will see different setups once Tychus returns. On hero league he is pretty much a 100% pick.
If i remember it right, people were already picking Tycho this sunday's ZOTAC.
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On January 28 2015 02:40 Tenks wrote:
Can anyone help me out on why most Valla tend to take RoV these days instead of Strafe? I still build Strafe and I feel like a unique snowflake doing it -- which usually means I'm wrong.
just a metagame thing. Lots of heroes around that are both worth interrupting and that can interrupt.
Tanks tend to be stitches, muradin, tyrael or arthas and 3 of those can easily interrupt valla. (well stitches only with the lvl 16 talent but they will take it if you go strife. Also the support is mostly bw or uther who can also easily interrupt it.
Finally it's more popular to have kerrigan or zeratul setups to make nicely timed combo's for which RoV works well. Void prison into a well timed RoV with some other root can be fantastic, same for the kerrigan setup.
Also makes the autoattack build slightly more attractive by the way as that synergizes better with RoV (you lose less time attacking) but multishot still wins out usually.
One of the few heroes where you keep seeing different trends for.
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I always enjoyed the Valla auto attack build but I seem to get no milage out of it these days. Even without really looking at the other team's comp I tend to default to W build. I'm not sure what the ideal comp would be to go auto attack instead of W.
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EPT
