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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On January 27 2015 10:45 deth2munkies wrote: Arguing that a hero "dies when focused and cc'd" as a weakness is a horrible argument. Name me one hero that doesn't. the wide world of stitches lol | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
If Thrall was that good, why is he not always first ban or first pick? If Thrall was that good, why is he not in every game? Are you suggesting that you know more about comps and the game than all the teams currently participating in tournaments? TBH, this feels like the Nova situation all over again. We're dealing with a hero that has clear weaknesses and counters and is not very useful when dealt with properly who is getting bashed because of a fixation on their strengths. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 27 2015 11:19 Brian333 wrote: I just find this stupid. If Thrall was that good, why is he not always first ban or first pick? If Thrall was that good, why is he not in every game? Are you suggesting that you know more about comps and the game than all the teams currently participating in tournaments? TBH, this feels like the Nova situation all over again. We're dealing with a hero that has clear weaknesses and counters and is not very useful when dealt with properly who is getting bashed because of a fixation on their strengths. If I had to guess, I'd say that teams haven't figured out what to do with him yet, so he hasn't worked his way into the professional meta. It's coming, though. He's too good not to be used. But that's besides the point. What goes on in the professional scene applies to less than 0.1% of the players out there. For the rest of us -- masters/diamond on down -- he's clearly a top tier hero. I keep seeing all of these posts about how he can be kited all day and never engage. It's all academic horseshit as far as I am concerned. I've had no such consistent problems. Wait for someone else on your team to engage, avoid the hard CC and burst, and then go in. It's like none of you play melee assassins. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On January 27 2015 11:19 Brian333 wrote: I just find this stupid. If Thrall was that good, why is he not always first ban or first pick? If Thrall was that good, why is he not in every game? Are you suggesting that you know more about comps and the game than all the teams currently participating in tournaments? TBH, this feels like the Nova situation all over again. We're dealing with a hero that has clear weaknesses and counters and is not very useful when dealt with properly who is getting bashed because of a fixation on their strengths. You're talking about the teams like they know whats going on, the game is still incredibility unknown. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
If you feel like you know the game better, feel free to go educate them. The bulk of them stream and respond to twitch chat. Go tell them how much smarter you are. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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Brian333
657 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
EDIT: If nothing else, he's the perfect counterpick to tank-heavy teams. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On January 27 2015 11:45 [SXG]Phantom wrote: Not exactly, remmember how in sc2 everyone thought hellions and ghost sucked, and then suddenly months after withouth needs of a buff to those unit people disccovered they were amazing? and then blizz nerfed? The same applies here. Being a good player doesn't make you know more about the game. Sure, you know a minimum, you know a lot, but your word isn't law and there are still things to be discovered in this game. exactly its that way in so many games. Someone takes an underrated, hero, champ, god what have you, figures out they have a role and they suddenly become and auto ban | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 27 2015 12:41 LongShot27 wrote: So i've been playing Tassadar alot over the last couple days and people are saying he's awful, is their something im missing? He's a great choice for a fifth hero on a team. He provides good support and solid damage. A real jack of all trades character. Most consider him top tier. | ||
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sushiko
197 Posts
It can go both ways, pros will start playing Thrall because they figured out some amazing synergy/comp or style of play, OR he'll just die as never picked because players across all levels realize hes easy to "kite/CC/kill" or something. In my opinion, the first option is more likely unless a patch nerfs Thrall to the ground. On January 27 2015 12:45 xDaunt wrote: He's a great choice for a fifth hero on a team. He provides good support and solid damage. A real jack of all trades character. Most consider him top tier. Tass is pretty hard to kill and has a great push with psi storm. Archon form seems to be the to-go ult but I've had more success spamming force fields. This game has so many chokepoints and objectives, and forcefield is definitely the higher skill cap skill to get. Used well, it's easy kills and objectives. Vice versa, you can seriously fuck up your team on top of you doing less dps. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On January 27 2015 12:47 sushiko wrote: I'm a big advocate of NOT having tier lists for this reason. They really don't serve much point except at the very top of the ladder. Case in point with Thrall, if we trust hotslogs (only real source of data), masters league rarely played within first week of play, winrate is comparable to Valla's, but Kerrigan has the highest winrate as an assassin. But then you look at diamond, Thrall is the top winning %. Platinum players played him the most and won with him the most over other assassins. In a game where you can't play the newest hero, the people buying him has an advantage which accounts for a small percentage of wins, but over time (next month) I think it will balance out. Pubs right now have a hard time coordinating in a game without voice communication, so yes, Thrall has been decimating across all levels, except masters. So is Thrall strong? Yes because clearly he's winning way more times than losing. It can go both ways, pros will start playing Thrall because they figured out some amazing synergy/comp or style of play, OR he'll just die as never picked because players across all levels realize hes easy to "kite/CC/kill" or something. In my opinion, the first option is more likely unless a patch nerfs Thrall to the ground. Tass is pretty hard to kill and has a great push with psi storm. Archon form seems to be the to-go ult but I've had more success spamming force fields. This game has so many chokepoints and objectives, and forcefield is definitely the higher skill cap skill to get. Used well, it's easy kills and objectives. Vice versa, you can seriously fuck up your team on top of you doing less dps. Tier lists are stupid, case and point Super smash. I take forcefield over archon every time. Boxing a person into back to back storms is almost a guaranteed kill and archon mode really just make you a big meatball saying "KILL ME" | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
Also, Illidan has the best sustain in the game, not Thrall. You don't need to take any specific talents on Illidan for him to have his sustain, don't have to wait until level 16, and mana tide is also not always the best talent pick and level 4 and that is what Thrall's sustain comes from. Two ults that have tremendous utility is an overstatement since Earthquake is situational. And yea, hotslogs winrates. Falstad at the bottom with 51% winrate but would anyone like to make the claim that he is UP and worse than Murky? Anub'arak the #1 warrior in the world? We'll one day have a website with metrics that make sense and matter but today is not that day. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 27 2015 13:32 Brian333 wrote: Gazlowe might have the highest sustained damage in the game if you choose to stand in his turret field and let him melee your face with upgraded Robogoblin. You talk about others speaking from the viewpoint of theory and then do so yourself. Thrall is never going to reach his theoretical damage because he is a melee hero. There are a lot of heroes who will easily deal more damage than Thrall in practice. Really? You're going to compare the theoretical potential of Thrall's damage to standing in front of Gazlowe's fucking turrets while Gazlowe beats on you? Give me a break. There's nothing theoretical about Thrall's damage at all. I'm routinely number 1 or 2 on the hero damage charts with him for my team, which is particularly impressive when you consider that his damage is very heavily loaded towards single-target damage. Also, Illidan has the best sustain in the game, not Thrall. You don't need to take any specific talents on Illidan for him to have his sustain, don't have to wait until level 16, and mana tide is also not always the best talent pick and level 4 and that is what Thrall's sustain comes from. Mana tide is not necessary for Thrall's sustain. The more important talents are the level 13 and 16 windfury talents, in addition to battle momentum at level 7. He can easily get through a teamfight if he has more than half mana. But yes, if you're talking about a long enough time horizon of fighting, Thrall does eventually need mana tide instead of envenom. As for comparing Thrall to Illidan, Illidan's sustain is better early game, but by level 16, Thrall's sustain better by far. Two ults that have tremendous utility is an overstatement since Earthquake is situational. I rarely use earthquake because sundering is clearly the better pick unless your team is planning on executioner shenanigans. So if you want to shit on earthquake, that's fine. But sundering is a Grade A ultimate. | ||
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sushiko
197 Posts
On January 27 2015 13:32 Brian333 wrote: And yea, hotslogs winrates. Falstad at the bottom with 51% winrate but would anyone like to make the claim that he is UP and worse than Murky? Anub'arak the #1 warrior in the world? We'll one day have a website with metrics that make sense and matter but today is not that day. Honestly there isn't anything wrong with the data that Hotslog has, sample size is smaller and biased towards higher skill players, but that doesn't invalidate it. It's more that analyzing data is very difficult, especially in a game with lots of variables. I did take the liberty to look just at winrates because I feel like that's the simpliest metric without overcomplicating things. For example, IF I really wanted to a deep analysis I would look at Thrall + 4 most heroes vs 5 heroes that makes him have a higher winrate. Here's a theory: Maybe he's a lot easier to play( lower skill cap) than other heroes? Maybe Thrall has something that beats a team with other most played heroes? The only thing I can get out of the stats is Thrall wins more than most heroes. Whether that means Thrall is stonger than them is up to debate but I'll interpret it as that. | ||
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rebuffering
Canada2436 Posts
Also, ill be pissed off if i only got access because battle.net is down, and when it comes back up access will be revoked! Edit: And yes thats exactly what happend, Bnet is back up, and im not licensed for the game. Why Blizz? Why you let me download it in the 1st place? | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On January 27 2015 12:05 LongShot27 wrote: exactly its that way in so many games. Someone takes an underrated, hero, champ, god what have you, figures out they have a role and they suddenly become and auto ban The unit can still be bad, but is good against what currently is played when no one is used of playing against it. Thats the beauty of rock paper scissor design. Though Hellions just became a thing because of the Siege tank nerf, and Ghosts emerged the moment when the other races could reach lategame against Terran and Terran didn't instantly die. Praise Shakuras plateau, the map that elevated starcraft 2 onto another level and brought us late game mass reapers in its dieing moments. Really a shame that most meta shifts in Sc2 come from buffs and nerfs. You slowly start to see people figuring stuff out and a wild David Kim appears to throw it all off the table. Can't complain though to many people want to have vanilla WoW style balance. As for Thrall, we might not know much yet, but he is damn effective against unorganized teams. They should bring in more heroes like that, rather then changing them. Limits them to much. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10167 Posts
I would compare thrall to LoL's tryndamere. | ||
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