EPTOn December 06 2014 17:05 iakona13 wrote:
I'm actually the one who's in the videos XD
I'm actually the one who's in the videos XD
my b guys <3
Heroes Large General Thread - Page 231
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rewtamus
United States327 Posts
my b guys <3 | ||
iakona13
United States42 Posts
No worries, as long as you watch them, I'm happy  | ||
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lock203
United States43 Posts
I could use some help learning so I don't hold back my team in versus mode. If anyone is willing to teach me the ropes I would appreciate it. Add me VooDooJuice#1797, mainly on in the evenings/late night NA. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
Otherwise, she's insanely squishy for how much she actually puts out. An AoE Weaken effect on CoC is just fucking amazing, but it's so short range that she's practically in melee and will immediately die to anyone and anything at that range. All of the talents buffing Blizzard aren't good enough because Blizzard has such a long CD and none of them reduce that. The longer chill duration talent is practically mandatory as it lets you keep chill up with subsequent Frostbolt hits. Most of the time, though, I'm focused and evaporated before I can do anything, because I have to be at least near the frontlines and nobody at lvl 1-3 Jaina MMR knows how to peel or initiate and I've gotten really shitty teamcomps with really shitty Arthases practically every game. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
I just got out of a game with the worst Abathur I've ever had the misfortune of playing with. It was on Blackhearts Bay, we lost the treasure chest race because my team was retarded and nobody came, but that's fine. This Abathur is sitting by the middle fort just pushing top lane. Not using Toxic Nests, not helping with fights around the chests, just pushing top lane. Needless to say, they get the early turn in and our middle fort falls. Does he notice? Nope. They walk up and just kill him. He spends the rest of the game in the fountain, literally afk for a few minutes (which I call him on). Then later I reference him being afk earlier and he says, "You don't know how my hero works, I can't attack, I sit at fountain all game." Then I tell him that he needs to use nests and needs to be out of the base so his locusts can actually GET to their forts. He further accuses me of not knowing how to play Abathur and I must be super new and horrible because he has SIEGE DAMAGE! Under 3k hero damage at 8 mintues into the game, but BY GOD HE HAS 18k SIEGE DAMAGE! EVERYONE WORSHIP THE ABATHUR! So I mention he needs to go somewhere they're not and splitpush, and he decides to give me an object lesson in Abathur's autoattacking capabilities by BURROWING INTO THEIR ENTIRE TEAM. Needless to say he instantly dies and we lose after some trolling from them (they obtained and lost 69 coins to me at one point). The whole time the Abathur is either afk, whining at team, or calling me a noob. Literally the most frustrating time I've had at Heroes so far, especially coming off 5 losses in a row due to bad teamcomps/players. | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
 The worst thing is that when you try to explain it to them, they just keep calling you noob.So i think that when you buy a hero, you should at first play it on coop for the talents, and then only with friends. I have been practicing with zeratul, and i just couldn't win with him, until i started to only play him on premades, and thats when i started winning and starting to actually understand it and play it better. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
I obviously implied that we should follow the golem and focus core, but instead my team decided to attack the other sides of where our golem was, which meant that they attacked the initial towers/walls. They did that while our golem qucily was being killed as it attacked the enemy core. The end-result was that the enemy-golem brought our core down to 50% hp and our golem brought their core to 90% hp. I've seen lots of dumb stuff, but most decisions can be attributed to lack of awareness of what happens on the map, but this one.. I just have no clue at all what went through their minds. Also had another adorable moment when I was playing on the Pirate map. My allied Kerrigan was in the proces of attacking a chest while the remaining of our team was on the other side. She obviously shouldn't be there and I told her to go back, but it was slightly too late as 3 enemies came and attacked here. I rushed to try and save her, and succesfully did that by VP'ing all 3 of them, which meant that she could get away safely. The voidprison was casted just right next to the chest, which required 2 hits before it died. After being saved, I could almost see the confusion on Kerrigans face as she just stood still for a second thinking about what she should do next. The dilemma to her was obvious: Should she run or should she kill the chests and pick up the money? Meanwhile, I couldn't believe that she could be thinking of killing the chests. Even if she could kill it and pick up the coins in time (which would take roughly 5 seconds - same duration as VP), she would die immediately after. This had a 0% probability of working. And we can't fight them as the rest of our team was on the other side of the map. But she still decided to do that, while I stared speecheless at her. Too make the story even more hilarious - after she attacked once, she proceeded to walk right into the Void Prison, and was trapped along with the 3 enemies, and died immediately after. True story. | ||
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
VODs https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidJakeGG/videos | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
1) Lingering Chill 2) Frost Shards/Envenom (depending on the # of squishies they have) 3) Ice Lance 4) Ring of Frost/Summon Water Ele (RoF unless your team has other AoE CCs, Water Ele AI is retarded so it won't do much against people not standing still) 5) Improved Ice Block/Sprint/Icy Veins (Icy Veins is cool and all, but Jaina really needs a survivability talent more. Only take it in rare circumstances where you have a big frontline. Ice Block vs Sprint is dependent on how much damage you can avoid with Ice Block and how much CC they have that makes Sprint less good) 6) Northern Exposure/Numbing Blast (If your team has good CC already, Northern Exposure is by far the best talent. It's only close if you really need the CC from Numbing Blast) 7) Bolt of the Storm/Wintermute (IFF you took Water Ele and you don't need more survivability, Wintermute is one of the highest damaging talents in the game if you work it properly. It gives you huge burst if you can manage to hit the copys of your skills on the same target, but it so situational that it's normally not worth it). | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On December 08 2014 01:19 deth2munkies wrote: Jaina Talent builds: 1) Lingering Chill 2) Frost Shards/Envenom (depending on the # of squishies they have) 3) Ice Lance 4) Ring of Frost/Summon Water Ele (RoF unless your team has other AoE CCs, Water Ele AI is retarded so it won't do much against people not standing still) 5) Improved Ice Block/Sprint/Icy Veins (Icy Veins is cool and all, but Jaina really needs a survivability talent more. Only take it in rare circumstances where you have a big frontline. Ice Block vs Sprint is dependent on how much damage you can avoid with Ice Block and how much CC they have that makes Sprint less good) 6) Northern Exposure/Numbing Blast (If your team has good CC already, Northern Exposure is by far the best talent. It's only close if you really need the CC from Numbing Blast) 7) Bolt of the Storm/Wintermute (IFF you took Water Ele and you don't need more survivability, Wintermute is one of the highest damaging talents in the game if you work it properly. It gives you huge burst if you can manage to hit the copys of your skills on the same target, but it so situational that it's normally not worth it). I kind of disagree with you there. RoF is really tricky to land, and pretty much requires you to have other CCs on your team if your opponents are decent. The Elemental on the other hand guarantees the chill debuff on anyone nearby, and is itself rather strong. RoF is just way too hard to land, and only roots the targets. If it were a stun, I would take it over Elemental. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On December 08 2014 03:14 Spaylz wrote: I kind of disagree with you there. RoF is really tricky to land, and pretty much requires you to have other CCs on your team if your opponents are decent. The Elemental on the other hand guarantees the chill debuff on anyone nearby, and is itself rather strong. RoF is just way too hard to land, and only roots the targets. If it were a stun, I would take it over Elemental. It's a long root, though, long enough to land whatever you and your team need to land. It's also worth it to note that if they walk over the ring after it roots, they still get chilled, so you get them chilled anyway unless they hang out in the middle, which is just as good as a root. The problem with Water Elemental is that you have 0 control over it. Use it in lane? It'll attack minions. Lose LoS of your target because they ran through smoke/brush? It will sit still and not move until someone else comes into its range (not your range). It doesn't attack your target, it doesn't follow you, it doesn't do anything but sit there being useless half the time. The only time it's really good is if you have Numbing Blast and Wintermute, then you can Water Ele on their team and follow it up with a CoC to root everyone, then double blizzard them for massive damage. That's quite the wombo combo, but again is incredibly situational. Overall, Ring of Frost is the better teamfight and escape spell, it just requires you to know how to aim it. Anyone who played WoW PvP or Veigar in LoL will be good at it. Addendum: If Blizzard hotfixes the AI and lets it attack your target rather than whatever's nearby and makes it follow you when there is no target available, I would probably recommend it over RoF in most situations. | ||
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
On December 08 2014 03:36 deth2munkies wrote: It's a long root, though, long enough to land whatever you and your team need to land. It's also worth it to note that if they walk over the ring after it roots, they still get chilled, so you get them chilled anyway unless they hang out in the middle, which is just as good as a root. The problem with Water Elemental is that you have 0 control over it. Use it in lane? It'll attack minions. Lose LoS of your target because they ran through smoke/brush? It will sit still and not move until someone else comes into its range (not your range). It doesn't attack your target, it doesn't follow you, it doesn't do anything but sit there being useless half the time. The only time it's really good is if you have Numbing Blast and Wintermute, then you can Water Ele on their team and follow it up with a CoC to root everyone, then double blizzard them for massive damage. That's quite the wombo combo, but again is incredibly situational. Overall, Ring of Frost is the better teamfight and escape spell, it just requires you to know how to aim it. Anyone who played WoW PvP or Veigar in LoL will be good at it. Addendum: If Blizzard hotfixes the AI and lets it attack your target rather than whatever's nearby and makes it follow you when there is no target available, I would probably recommend it over RoF in most situations. The WE It is not like Kerrugan's ultralisk, you can re-target it, pressing R and aiming at someone else. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Also as far as talents I disagree on lingering chill, chill is easy to get on them just the first chill matters but lingering chill doesn't help there at all. I feel it's a pretty pointless talent since between your abilities and heroic you'll be chilling them anyway no matter the 4 or 6 sec duration. For escape it helps slightly but winter's reach is far better there. It's between winter's reach and conjurer's pursuit I think depending on the map and what you expect to be doing. Lots of globes conjurers pursuit otherwise just winter's reach. Other tiers I pretty much agree on although I think icy veins is good enough to take over the others usually. The others only help you escape or prevent dying not really prevent you from effectively being forced out of the fight. The team just has to protect jaina or hopefully they can't reach her too much. Icy veins at least let's you dump lots of damage before you are forced out or die. Hopefully quick enough to save your ass. Overall pretty much agree, her damage doesn't seem up to par for how squishy she is. She does have a bit of an unique position as a spellcaster without escapes. Zagara comes closest maybe but jaina is more aoe focussed, for competitive she might be good agianst a composition that is teamfocussed but can't burst her but it will not be often. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
Jaina is a hero where you trade damage for survivability with talents. If you spec for damage, her damage is more than on par. It's actually quite good. And as for her talent selection, I'll give my opinion on a few things -- Level 1 you want increased slow. The big justification for this is that a 25% --> 35% is a lot. The second is that it helps you run better from some situations -- you toss a frost bolt just to chill someone and then run (obviously doesn't work against people who chase well). The third justification is that the extra slow helps you land the second hit of Blizzard (and your skills in general) which is your big damage pay out. Increased chill duration is pretty useless because you can already easily perma chill someone and 4 seconds vs. 6 seconds in a big engagement is pretty meaningless. Level 4 is another no brainer. Increased Blizzard radius by 30% lets you blanket an enemy team in team fights and wipe waves more easily (you can already do so with the regular blizzard radius but if they get slightly mispositioned it won't). Also, when you get 2-3 stacks of minion waves or a big wave pushing with bruisers, you can instantly wipe it out. Envenom is more damage but its range is a huge issue with Jaina and I don't think it benefits from her Chill damage boost. Level 7 is kind of whatever. I don't really have a strong opinion about this tier yet. Level 10 is interesting. I was going Water Elemental for a while but switched to RoF. The reasoning is that Water Elemental is really underwhelming before level 20 and I found myself really valuing Bolt at 20 so it became increasingly difficult to take WE's level 20 talent. How I view Jaina is your team gets the initiation, you throw everything in there, and then you GTFO and wait for your CDs. RoF fits that idea since it's something you can just toss out there and then go back to focusing on staying alive / getting your damage in. It's kind of like Valla with Strafe vs. RoV. RoF is also effective without the level 20 talent so you can just take Bolt and gain an escape that Jaina desperately needs. Also, if you land everything in conjunction with a good initiation and something like a Divine Storm, the opposing team basically insta-wipes. Level 13 is Icy Veins. The burst potential is too good to pass up and because you are planning to take bolt at 20, passing up Sprint hurts less. Level 16 is 25% debuff from CoC. Again, stuff just dies once you land a CoC. This talent is so good that I might try taking level 7's CoC width and CD buff. As for the other talents, landing 2 waves of Blizzard is reasonable. Landing 3 waves of Blizzard is not going to happen unless the other team is locked down completely. Also, 2 waves of Blizzard is enough to wipe out minion waves. 3 is overkill. Ice Barrier is a real choice here but after playing around with it, it's not reliable enough. The duration is not long enough and while it gives you thousands of shields it's not going to save you if you get targeted before landing your damage dealers or if you miss something. Also, because you aren't sure about the amount of shields you get, it's just hard to be consistent with it. And level 20, as previously stated, is Bolt. You can't deal damage if you are dead. IMO this is the best team oriented burst build. There are other builds that I think make Jaina into a really good duelist but this game isn't about that (maybe solo queue is). | ||
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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RouaF
France4121 Posts
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On December 08 2014 15:19 [SXG]Phantom wrote: I just had a game where the enemy stiches used his ult, and ate 3 of us while we were pushing with the dragon knight, and then, the dragon knight used furious charge and send stiches inside their base, killing the 3 of us. It was pretty funny lol, but thank god we won that, because if not i would have been mad. Furious charge is the #1 nooblar detector in this game. 90% of the time the usage of this skill does more harm than good. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 08 2014 18:20 BluzMan wrote: Furious charge is the #1 nooblar detector in this game. 90% of the time the usage of this skill does more harm than good. dragon knight and garden terror usage in general is awful. How often doesn't the knight just die pointlessly, people don't run it while you could use it slightly more conservatively and get far more damage of it's abilities. Garden terror is even worse though, people using it to chase heroes or always want to initiate a teamfight with it. Often it's at it best split pushing because they have to send 2 people after it typically to minimize damage from the pods. Speaking of the pods, how many people play that poorly. So many teammates that don't focus them.. And then even more who place the pods poorly, you either place the pod to hit as many buildings or place it safely. So often you see something in between or people go for the greedy placement anyway while it would be much better often to keep it more safely in the back so it's up far longer. Well most objectives get misplayed anyway I feel in pub. Cursed hollow the team focusses too much on the tribute often, heroes that hopelessly sacrifice themselves into 3+ enemy heroes to delay the tribute gathering.. Even abandoning the push on a fort for it.. Blackheart bay sometimes the overzealous turning in off coins, going for every single coin while it won't be a cannon fired. Or reverse, not handing in a single coin when the meter is 15/16. The worst though heading over with 8+ coins alone on heroes like zagara. Haunted mines most seem to do alright though, perhaps because the objective is more straightforward there. Still oftne too early cap on the siege giants. Also frustatingly poor splitting up during mines often or like cursed hollow overzealously sacrificing to prevent the golem kill. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
25%->35% is not enough of a difference to even be noticeable. I've tried it and I really couldn't tell the difference. Blizzard radius is pretty useless IMO simply because it's on such a long CD you're casting it once per fight. If you're not getting the 3rd wave (and you shouldn't) it's not worth losing the ability to hit 2 with your Frostbolt or Evenom down a squishy target. You don't do damage if you're dead, and popping Icy Veins is awesome and all, but if a Nova just bursts you or a Kerrigan tries to combo you, etc. you die. You can't write off your survivability entirely until lvl 20 or you won't live to do anything and your team will lose before then. I honestly think Ice Block is generally better but Sprint is definitely better against some comps. Icy Veins feels fun but very win-more, you do fine without it. I tried the CoC width/CD buff, I just never really want to be in range to cast it. That's the problem with CoC in its current form, if you're close enough to cast it and your opponents are not CC'd, you're probably going to die or get massively chunked very soon. That's why CoC root is actually an option if you're on a low CC team. It lets you actually use the ability and get back to safe distance without getting wrecked. Otherwise, yes, the 25% damage buff on multiple targets is just too good. My bulid is for solo queue. I don't play competitively, but I assume stuff I said "for good teams" mostly rings true, meaning Icy Veins, Water Elemental, and Wintermute as an option. Frost Shards + Ice Lance is still more directed damage than the Blizzard range, though, so I'd take it over that. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On December 08 2014 18:44 Markwerf wrote: dragon knight and garden terror usage in general is awful. How often doesn't the knight just die pointlessly, people don't run it while you could use it slightly more conservatively and get far more damage of it's abilities. Garden terror is even worse though, people using it to chase heroes or always want to initiate a teamfight with it. Often it's at it best split pushing because they have to send 2 people after it typically to minimize damage from the pods. Speaking of the pods, how many people play that poorly. So many teammates that don't focus them.. And then even more who place the pods poorly, you either place the pod to hit as many buildings or place it safely. So often you see something in between or people go for the greedy placement anyway while it would be much better often to keep it more safely in the back so it's up far longer. Well most objectives get misplayed anyway I feel in pub. Cursed hollow the team focusses too much on the tribute often, heroes that hopelessly sacrifice themselves into 3+ enemy heroes to delay the tribute gathering.. Even abandoning the push on a fort for it.. Blackheart bay sometimes the overzealous turning in off coins, going for every single coin while it won't be a cannon fired. Or reverse, not handing in a single coin when the meter is 15/16. The worst though heading over with 8+ coins alone on heroes like zagara. Haunted mines most seem to do alright though, perhaps because the objective is more straightforward there. Still oftne too early cap on the siege giants. Also frustatingly poor splitting up during mines often or like cursed hollow overzealously sacrificing to prevent the golem kill. While I agree on the Dragon Knight, I have to disagree about the Garden Terror. Why would you not fight with it? Have you seen just how much damage it does per hit? One slap from that thing is like 500 damage at the beginning, and 1000+ toward the end. Add to that the fact that it has an aoe hex, and you're golden. It really is a teamfight winner in my opinion. In decent to high level games, nobody is actually going to let you split push with the plant. You'll end up splitting up, and if 2-3 people defend you while you have the plant, you hardly do any damage. I feel that the best thing to do with the Terror is to push as 5, force a fight, and drop pods in the back where it can first take out the walls and towers, and then the Fort/Keep. The Terror is so much stronger than the Dragon Knight. The first Terror can easily take a Fort if you go as 5, whereas the first Dragon Knight pretty much serves to destroy two sets of walls + towers, at best. | ||
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